Thread: will x 2
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Old 01-Aug-2005, 11:53
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Default Re: will x 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPedantic
'Reversed zero conditional' is not a term I'm happy with; I still prefer 'inferential', where the intention is to present an inference, rather than cause+effect. But perhaps some ESL students would find it easier to think in terms of 'variations on type 0/3 if-statements', rather than 'non-type-0/3 if-statements'.


The structure here is similar to your 'Joe' example. We can reduce it to:

1. If Chelsea don't win, someone has tapped up the ref. →
2. If Chelsea don't win, (it's because) someone has tapped up the ref.

If we accept that the term 'zero conditional' can be used not only to present a 'scientific truth', but also (by analogy) to present a personal belief, as in your example, we can say that #2 is a derivative of this 'zero conditional':

3. When someone taps up the ref, Chelsea don't win.

In #3, we have 'If P, next Q'. In #2, we have 'If Q, it's because P' (i.e. the 'reversed' version of #3):

4. When Chelsea don't win, (it's because) someone taps up the ref.
4a. When Chelsea don't win, (it's because) someone has tapped up the ref.

The use of the present perfect in #1 may seem to rule out the 'zero conditional'. Indeed, most of the analyses of If-statements I've seen seem to ignore the present perfect altogether, although it's fairly common in such structures – where emphasis is required, for example:

5. If he has already signed, the contract will need to be reviewed.

But to my mind, a present perfect in either protasis or apodosis (or both) can equally present a universal law:

6. If you heat water to 100C, it boils. →
7. If you have heated water to 101C, it has boiled.

Therefore it seems definable as a 'zero conditional'.

From which I conclude that this sentence can be classed as a 'reversed zero conditional':

8. If Chelsea don't win tomorrow, someone has tapped up the ref.

MrP
To me, the present perfect can't be used to represent a universal law or truth. The present perfect means something has happened, but it doesn't mean it happens all the time. Even if the present perfect is used to speak of something that we know to be a universal law or truth, it is still only referring to a specific time or specific times. To me, a zero conditional speaks of "all time". It carries the meaning of "whenever". As I see it, that meaning is lost if the present perfect is used. That meaning might only remain based on our knowledge of universal laws and universal truths. The meaning, however, does not remain in the sentence itself. We have to separate what the sentence really means from what we understand to be true all the time.

Quote:
7. If you have heated water to 101C, it has boiled.

Therefore it seems definable as a 'zero conditional'.
Yes, it seems so, but I wouldn't define it that way. I don't think it would work that way all the time.

With the present simple in both clauses, a universal law or truth can always be stated.

Last edited by Steven D; 01-Aug-2005 at 17:45.
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