Casiopea wrote: Quote:
Cas3. I ate. (finished, over, ended)
Cas4. I have eaten. (finished, over, ended)
'ate' is an action that HAPPENED in the past  "action" has got to go.
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jws replied: Quote:
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I don't understand what you mean by "action" has got to go
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We need to delete or change the word "action" in part A of our definition. Otherwise, it defines the Perfect and the Simple Past as having no difference:
Definition Part A. Present Perfect expresses an
action that is already COMPLETED at the present time.
jws added: Quote:
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No difference. That's what I meant by saying that the difference may not ALWAYS be there between the two tenses. Which is very true, because we often have a choice of saying the same thing in more than one way.
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Well, not necessarily. Just because a given speaker, native or non-native, feels there is no difference between, say, "I ate" and "I have eaten" doesn't prove they are the same. That is, the similarity is apparent only. Both actions ended, finished, are over. They seem similar, don't they, but they aren't.
The Present Perfect expresses continuity, or what you've referred to as "spanning", I believe, whereas the Simple Past does not. So in that respect, the Simple Past is not like the Present Perfect. So, even though it may not be apparent on the surface, speakers use the two in different ways.
If, let's say, someone asks us to explain when to use "I have eaten", and we give them the A. part of our definition, they may ask, 'Well, then, if Present Perfect refers to an action that happened in the past, what then is the difference between "I have eaten" and "I ate"?"
Would we add, "Oh, well, there's a B. part to the definition, re: "spanning". So, 'ate' and 'eaten' are the same with regards to being finished, over, happened, and differ with regards to "spanning". 'have eaten' spans, whereas 'ate' does not. Ok, well, that fits nicely.
But, and here's the rub, the same explanation does not hold true for all verbs. Consider 'lived' and 'have lived. One ended, the other has not. In other words, to explain 'have eaten' we have to use both A. and B. parts of our definitions. To explain 'have lived', on the other hand, we can only use the B. part of the definition. That is, "Perfect" refers to ? being completed, so why isn't 'have lived' completed? a learner may ask.
If we view 'completed' as referring to an action, learners, then, have to know which verbs (actions) fit into part A. and B. and which verbs fit only into part B. That's what Shun means when he says that
grammarians hide away. What he means, simply put, is that the definitions don't make any sense. And he's right. They are somewhat complex (i.e. A & B, but only B in some cases), but, and here's where Shun and I disagree, he believes grammarians use complex definitions so as to mask a lack of understanding of the Perfect. In other words, Shun strongly feels that grammarians don't know what they are talking about, but since they are authorities they have to make it look good, so they use complex language, hoping that the average Joe won't question them and 'find them out, as Shun is known to say.
And, I don't need to tell you, given our present definition for the Present Perfect, we're in agreement with him. He loves this stuff. It fuels his fire. And rightly so. We're wrong. He is right about our definition. We need to take a step back and rework it. Not because we want to prove Shun wrong, that's neither here nor there. So we ourselves can gain a clearer insight into the issues as well as be able to offer learners, especially our students a better understanding of how to use the Present Perfect.
Describing the Present Perfect by using A and B parts of a definition is rather uneconomical not to mention somewhat suspect. We need to define X as X, not as X
and Y, as does part A. of our definition. Something in the Present Perfect's definition has to be deleted, or changed (i.e. 'has to go) so as to differentiate its function (Present Perfect) from that of Y's function (the Simple Past). I humbly suggested the word "action" go.
Cas :D
Sorry for typos and whathaveyouz. I'm on lunch and in a mad dash.
Looking delightfully forward, as always, to your insightful reply.