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Thread: If I was...

  1. #11
    Abstract Idea is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: If I was...

    OK, I have read and reread the posts here. However I am still confused. In fact I guess I more confused now than before I read this thread.

    I thought that in conditionals one should always use the subjunctive.
    Let us see the classical example:
    First conditional: If I have enough money, I will go to India.
    Second conditional: If I had enough money, I would go to India.
    Third conditional: If I had had enough money, I would have gone to India.
    Are the above underlined verbs in the indicative or subjunctive forms?
    I thought they were in the subjunctive form, is it so?

    Let us consider once more the first example exhibited by kfredson:
    "If I was home yesterday when you called, then I must not have heard the knock on the door."
    This example does not look like the traditional conditionals, so it is possible that here the indicative case could be used.

    Quote Originally Posted by kfredson View Post
    "If I was worried about what people thought about me I'd never get anything done."
    "

    This one above does not look correct to me. It should be a real third conditional:
    "If I had been worried about what people thought about me, I would have never got anything done."

    I think all cases where one could use the verb in the indicative are not comprised by the three classical conditionals. For instance:
    Quote Originally Posted by sarat_106 View Post
    If Hamlet was really written by Marlowe, as many have argued, then we have underestimated Marlowe's genius
    This is not one of the classical conditionals.

    A curiosity: It looks as though the examples where one can use the indicative with "if" clauses seem to attract the word "then", while in the traditional conditionals one does not use "then."
    sarat_106 likes this.

  2. #12
    rob_1993 is offline Newbie
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    Default Re: If I was...

    When a situation is possible, one does not use the subjunctive: when a situation is unreal or unlikely, one uses the subjunctive.

    When I first posted on this thread, I myself deliberated whether or not the 2nd conditional has to use the subjunctive, but I came to the conclusion that perhaps the statement is not necessarily conditional...

    The zero conditional employs: indicative present + indicative past.
    The first conditional employs: indicative present + indicative future.
    The second conditional employs: subjunctive imperfect + conditional.
    The third consitional employs: subjunctive pluperfect + conditional perfect.


    Both:
    "If I was worried about what people thought about me, I'd never get anything done"
    and
    "If I had been worried about what people thought about me, I would have never got anything done".

    Which one you use is dependant on what you mean by it: the first sentence implies future but employs present; the second sentence implies a distinct time in the past.

    I suppose one could argue that this is correct:
    "If I were worried about what people thought about me, I'd never get anything done".
    But, the speaker would have to be very adamant on not caring what others thought.

    I think this is a grey area of the English language: one rule tells you to one thing, but another tell you the opposite. I would say if you did want to imply future, you could use either was or were, and adjust your argument for using it accordingly :)
    Last edited by rob_1993; 03-Jan-2010 at 12:44. Reason: spelling error

  3. #13
    Abstract Idea is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: If I was...

    Quote Originally Posted by ymnisky View Post
    I thought that in conditionals one should always use the subjunctive.
    Let us see the classical example:
    First conditional: If I have enough money, I will go to India.
    Second conditional: If I had enough money, I would go to India.
    Third conditional: If I had had enough money, I would have gone to India.
    Are the above underlined verbs in the indicative or subjunctive forms?
    I thought they were in the subjunctive form, is it so?
    Answering my own question (I post and keep thinking about it), in the first conditional the if clause is in the indicative mode. That is because we say:
    1a)"If I am a mathematician, I will solve this problem." (instead of "*If I be a mathematician, I will solve this problem*.")
    and
    2a) "If he likes math, he will solve this problem." (instead of "*If he like math, he will solve this problem.*")
    However in both examples above, "then" is implied:
    1b)"If I am a mathematician then I will solve this problem."
    2b) "If he likes math then he will solve this problem."

    Now I believe that in the second and third conditionals the if clause is always in the subjunctive modus. What do you think about it? Do you agree?

    If we use the word "then" in the second and third conditionals, although it may be grammatically correct, it really does not sound good, or fair, at least to my ears:
    "If I had enough money then I would go to India." In this sentence, "then" seems to be kind of weird, don't you agree?

    My claim about the three classical conditionals is the following:
    In the first conditional, the verb in the if clause is always in the indicative modus.
    In the second/third conditionals, the verb in the if clause is always in the subjunctive modus.

  4. #14
    kfredson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: If I was...

    Quote Originally Posted by kfredson View Post
    "If I was home yesterday when you called, then I must not have heard the knock on the door."
    This is an appropriate use of "If I was..." But is it incorrect to use it in the following way:
    "If I was worried about what people thought about me I'd never get anything done."
    Is it always mandatory in such situations to say "If I were..."?
    If so, are there other appropriate uses of "If I was..."?
    I want to thank the many people who took time to discuss this. Not being an ESL teacher I confess to having spent little time understanding the forms of the conditional but this has prompted me to do just that.

    With your help it now seems to me that the first statement ("If I was home yesterday....") is correct but is not a conditional at all.

    The second sentence ("If I was worried about what people thought...") is an example of a second conditional. It is dealing with something that is contrary to fact (I am not actually worried...) Thus it requires a subjunctive form of the past of "are," namely, "were."

    Now, according to one website, when employing this second conditional you change the verb from present to past (e.g., from "have" to "had".) This is wrong, however, since in my sentence you need to change it from "am" to "were," not "was." ("had" functions both as past and subjunctive, as I understand it.) So there is some confusion out there on this point.

    And first conditional? That is described nicely here. It is only used with a verb in the present and future tenses.

    I hope this also addresses some of our friend ymnisky's concerns in his last post. To summarize, as I understand it my first sentence is not a conditional at all.
    The second sentence ("If I was worried") is a second conditional and should be written in the subjunctive ("If I were worried....") It is referring to a situation today which isn't actually happening.
    If you were to write ("If I had worried...") it would mean something different, in that it would be referring to a situation in the past which hadn't actually been the case.

    Is everyone out there on "the same page"?

    Thanks again to the contributors of this thread.

    (By the way, the originator of the ("If I was worried") sentence dwells in a building known as the White House. Oh, well; nobody's perfect.)

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