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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 15-Sep-2005, 16:25
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Default Re: need explaining

Sorry to butt in, but the debate is pretty difficult to follow (yes, I've read the whole thread)
Are:
"I need my shirts ironing"
"I need my son spanking"
both correct? AmE and/or BrE? Spoken English only?
"I need my shirt ironing" means that my shirt needs ironing according to me?
I understand the construct "I need X doing Y" eg. I need my car running, but I'm not familiar at all with the two previous sentences. Is this common usage?
Thanks,

FRC
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 15-Sep-2005, 22:34
M56
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Default Re: need explaining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
Sorry to butt in, but the debate is pretty difficult to follow (yes, I've read the whole thread)
Are:
"I need my shirts ironing"
"I need my son spanking"
both correct? AmE and/or BrE? Spoken English only?
"I need my shirt ironing" means that my shirt needs ironing according to me?
I understand the construct "I need X doing Y" eg. I need my car running, but I'm not familiar at all with the two previous sentences. Is this common usage?
Thanks,

FRC
Sorry, Francois, but it's a bit hard to know what you are questioning above.

Is the text below a question, or is it a statement?

"I need my shirt ironing" means that my shirt needs ironing according to me?
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 08:05
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Default Re: need explaining

It reads:
Does "I need my shirt ironing" mean "my shirt needs ironing according to me"?
I guess the other questions are clear enough.

FRC
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 08:16
M56
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Default Re: need explaining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
It reads:
Does "I need my shirt ironing" mean "my shirt needs ironing according to me"?
I guess the other questions are clear enough.

FRC
Yes, they mean the same, in my regional use.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 10:44
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Default Re: need explaining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Francois
Sorry to butt in, but the debate is pretty difficult to follow (yes, I've read the whole thread)
Happy to have you join, Francois. M56 started this discussion with, does anyone see an aspectual difference between:

I need my dog walked.
I need my dog walking.

M56 proposes that it's a verb/gerund and, moreover, that it's somekind of BrE regional variation (?) I'd like to know more, but haven't been too successful, either.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 11:54
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Default Re: need explaining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casiopea
Happy to have you join, Francois. M56 started this discussion with, does anyone see an aspectual difference between:

I need my dog walked.
I need my dog walking.

M56 proposes that it's a verb/gerund and, moreover, that it's somekind of BrE regional variation (?) I'd like to know more, but haven't been too successful, either.
<I'd like to know more, but haven't been too successful, either. >

How much more would you like to know?
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 11:56
M56
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Default Re: need explaining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casiopea
Happy to have you join, Francois. M56 started this discussion with, does anyone see an aspectual difference between:

I need my dog walked.
I need my dog walking.

M56 proposes that it's a verb/gerund and, moreover, that it's somekind of BrE regional variation (?) I'd like to know more, but haven't been too successful, either.
<I'd like to know more, but haven't been too successful, either. >

How much more would you like to know?

BTW, It could be a verb, gerund or gerundive, depending on one's meaning at a certain moment.

http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/l.../gerundive.htm

Last edited by M56; 16-Sep-2005 at 12:14.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 12:00
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Default Re: need explaining

TY cas.
In "I need my dog walked", I believe there's an implicit agent: walked by someone. Or, to rephrase, "I need somone to walk my dog" -- but the later switch the focus to the agent, whereas the former keeps the focus on the dog. Is that correct?
In "I need my dog walking", I believe (the way I understand it) there's no agent involved. The focus is on the action: I want my dog to do this or that. Is that right?
Following this logic, I've a hard time figuring out "I need my son spanking" or "I need my shirts ironing". Your discussion on "I need X Y-ing by six" puzzles me even more. Why is "I need my shirts ironing" be correct while "I need my shirt ironing by six" is wrong? In both cases I would object (being a ESL speaker) that shirts don't iron themselves (though that would be fairly convenient).

FRC
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 12:31
M56
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Default Re: need explaining

<Francois]TY cas.
In "I need my dog walked", I believe there's an implicit agent: walked by someone. Or, to rephrase, "I need somone to walk my dog" -- but the later switch the focus to the agent, whereas the former keeps the focus on the dog. Is that correct?>

I guess it depends on one's perception of the whole thing. Some will say that "walked" in your construction, is a past participle, and others will claim it is an adejetive.

<In "I need my dog walking", I believe (the way I understand it) there's no agent involved. The focus is on the action: I want my dog to do this or that. Is that right?>

Could be, but then "walking" could be gerundive.

The gerundive (mainly found in Latin) "... does not refer to the completion of an activity the way a passive verb does, it does not have an agent in the true sense."

Following this logic, I've a hard time figuring out "I need my son spanking" or "I need my shirts ironing". Your discussion on "I need X Y-ing by six" puzzles me even more. >

Remember here that we are trying not to judge things too much from a Standard English viewpoint. The rules of Standard English are one thing, and rules for some regional uses may not be the same.

<Why is "I need my shirts ironing" be correct while "I need my shirt ironing by six" is wrong?>

"The adverbial "by six" states that something must be completed by a specified time. In my "I need X doing", I feel there could be a focus upon the pending nature of something or... a focus on the action as being in process (incomplete) at an unspecified time in the future.

The former case, i.e. pending actions at the momnet of speaking fits well with the gerundive nature of "ironing".

"The gerundive expresses obligation, not tense."


<In both cases I would object (being a ESL speaker) that shirts don't iron themselves (though that would be fairly convenient).>

That's fine, because you do that from a Standard English viewpoint, but there's a whole world of English usage beyond the ESL and Standardists' classroom.

M56

Last edited by M56; 16-Sep-2005 at 12:33.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 16-Sep-2005, 12:40
M56
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Default Re: need explaining

Francois...

How do you like:

John suggested asking Bill.
I suggested ironing shirts would be a nice thing to see


Are the shirts doing the ironing in the sentence there?

Last edited by M56; 16-Sep-2005 at 12:52.
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