inconsistent tense with indirect speech-- common mistake?

[Tdol]

Yes, it's perfectly correct not to shift with the present perfect.

[dihen]

Is it correct to use the subjunctive in the dependent clause if what is mentioned in the dependent clause becomes not true?
`
"I thought he were here (, but he's not)."

[Tdol]

No; there's no need for the subjunctive there. To me, that sounds like some dialects of northern England rather than the subjunctive.

[dihen]

Are these ungrammatical or just unnatural?
`
I didn't know you're here.
I didn't say you can.
I didn't know it's possible
I thought you said I can.

[DavyBCN]

Originally Posted by dihen

Are these ungrammatical or just unnatural?
`
I didn't know you're here.
I didn't say you can.
I didn't know it's possible
I thought you said I can.

I would say they were ungrammatical. I would say:-

I didn't know you were here
I didn't say you could
I didn't know it was possible
I thought you said I could

This is not an indirect speech issue but one where you have to use past tenses for both verbs.

[DavyBCN]

Originally Posted by dihen

Is it correct to not shift the tense if I use the present perfect?
`
"I have just heard that they are going to Paris this summer."
"He has told me that they are going to Paris this summer."
"I've already said I don't know."

Hm - not sure tdol.

"He told me that he had just heard that they were going to Paris this/In the summer."
Isn't the second one indirect speech already? If not, "He told me that he had told me that they were going to Paris this/in the summer." Very ugly sentence but "grammatically" correct.
"He told me that he had already said he didn't know."

On another point in the thread, one thing I say to my students is that in day to day language people tend to retain the present tense if they are reporting something which was said in the very recent past, and which therefore is more likely not to have changed.

He told me last year that he did not like you.
He told me yesterday that he does not like you.

I do not say to them that is a grammatical rule - just how people often speak.

[dihen]

Originally Posted by DavyBCN

I would say they were ungrammatical. I would say:-
`
I didn't know you were here
I didn't say you could
I didn't know it was possible
I thought you said I could
`
This is not an indirect speech issue but one where you have to use past tenses for both verbs.

Will native speakers ever say them in informal speech, at least when what is mentioned in the subordinate clause is still true?
`
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Originally Posted by DavyBCN

I would say they were ungrammatical.

Why didn't you say "I would say they are..."?

[riverkid]

There seems to be a great deal of confusion in this area of language too. Traditional/prescriptive grammar has long held to what is called Concord of Tenses or Sequence of Tenses. But yet again, it was simply a poor analysis of language.

The backshifting done for reported/indirect speech, does NOT occur because there is a need to match tenses to the reporting verb, in fact there often are semantic demands that we not match.

Backshifting occurs to alert listeners to the fact that this speech is NOT a direct quote. Most often, the effect in the speech quoted has not happened, so why would it be understood to be a past action.

Well, the truth of the matter is, ENLs don't view it as a past action.

A: I'm going to New York next week.

B: What did she say?

Is this a finished action? No of course not. So the report could be,

C1: She said that she's going to New York next week.

OR

C2: She said that she was going to New York next week.

No ENL alive would ever take C2 to mean that "she has gone to New York".

TO reiterate; the sequencing or concord that takes place for reported speech/indirect speech is done to mark the speech as something other than an actual quotation.

We see that in the above dialogue. The only thing that's past, finished is the reporting verb, and it's appropriately marked as 'said'. The past tense FORM 'was', in C2, doesn not mean past time/finished action, it states to all ENLs, "Attention, this is not a direct quote".

[dihen]

Anyway, will native speakers say these? I want to know if they sound unnatural.
`
I [didn't] know [you're] here.
I [didn't] say you [can].
I [didn't] know [it's] possible
I [thought] you [said] I [can].

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by dihen

Anyway, will native speakers say these? I want to know if they sound unnatural.

They definitely are possible, Dihen. We know that these are possible because we know that we can also give a direct quotation.

As to which would be in more common use, I can't honestly say, but remember that a backshift represents the most neutral statement.

Speech is highly emotive compared to writing, especially in written styles that make extensive use of reported speech, for examples, newspapers. Newspapers take great pains to represent what was said in the most neutral fashion possible, hence reported/indirect style backshifts would be the norm.

What this means is that for, say, "I didn't know you were here", with past tense FORM 'were', the speaker's statement is the least emotive.

The tenses that are used are only FORMS. They are not used to mark time in the normal sense that a past tense does. And the tense forms chosen are perfectly consistent with the real rules of language. Quite obviously, they are not consistent with the made up rules of traditional/prescriptive grammar.



`
I [didn't] know [you're] here.
I [didn't] say you [can].
I [didn't] know [it's] possible
I [thought] you [said] I [can].

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