first time I have done sth

[philo2009]

Originally Posted by engee30

Hello there,
I'd like somebody to enlighten me:

This is the first time I have eaten snails. - I know that we use the Present Perfect Simple tense in such patterns. But what happens if I write something like this:
This will be the first time I...
a) will have eaten snails.
or
b) have eaten snails.
or maybe something else.

Please help me.

(A) is correct, however 'wordy' it may sound.

However, you will find that AmE speakers tend to use a much simpler construction, namely It was/is/will be my first time to (do).

The use of the infinitive in the future as well as all other tenses neatly avoids the need for the rather cumbersome BrE form above.

[engee30]

Oh dear. One could say, long time no see this thread.

Ever since I started this topic, I have read a lot on English grammar.
In a nutshell, the most grammatically appropriate way to express such an idea is by the use of the Present Perfect. No surprise, you'll have thought
The thing is that the Present Perfect tense describes something that takes place at an unspecified time. Hence, we make use of it when talking about experiences, for example.
So, using such a construction as It was/is/will be the first time... the perfect seems to be the best choice over other possible ones.

That was the first time I had eaten snails. (the instance of my eating snails was an experience - before that particular moment, when I was eating them, I had never experienced such a thing)

This is the first time I have driven a car. (the instance of my driving a car is an experience - I have never driven before)

It will be the first time I have flown in a plane. (the instance of my flying in a plane will be an experience - the moment I am on that plane, I will be able to say I have never flown before, and since the future marker will is already in place, there's no need to use the Future Perfect Simple tense)

To all students - never have I seen other forms than the ones mentioned above used in textbooks or in any other stuff designed to help students prepare for a test or an exam.

[MrPedantic]

To my mind, there is a slight distinction between the two forms; not necessarily in meaning, but in temporal focus:

1. This will be the first time I'll have done T.
2. This will be the first time I've done T.


Past.........Time of Speaking.........First time

1. ..................................xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
2. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx......................

(The Xs mark the period in focus.)

It may be different for other speakers, of course.

MrP

[2006]

Originally Posted by engee30

Oh dear. One could say, long time no see this thread.

Ever since I started this topic, I have read a lot on English grammar.
In a nutshell, the most grammatically appropriate way to express such an idea is by the use of the Present Perfect. No surprise, you'll have thought
The thing is that the Present Perfect tense describes something that takes place at an unspecified time. Hence, we make use of it when talking about experiences, for example.
So, using such a construction as It was/is/will be the first time... the perfect seems to be the best choice over other possible ones.

That was the first time I had eaten snails. (the instance of my eating snails was an experience - before that particular moment, when I was eating them, I had never experienced such a thing)

This is the first time I have driven a car. (the instance of my driving a car is an experience - I have never driven before)

It will be the first time I have flown in a plane. (the instance of my flying in a plane will be an experience - the moment I am on that plane, I will be able to say I have never flown before, and since the future marker will is already in place, there's no need to use the Future Perfect Simple tense)

To all students - never have I seen other forms than the ones mentioned above used in textbooks or in any other stuff designed to help students prepare for a test or an exam.

As many people know, this is not the first discussion on perfect tense versus simple past or present tense.


For newcomers...

British speakers of English are very fond of perfect tense, while American English speakers often use simple tense.
engee30's sentence "No surprise, you'll have thought." is a good example. American speakers will likely say 'No surprise, you'll think.'

But it's not only that British speakers like perfect tense very much. They often claim perfect tense is the only correct way to say something, while American speakers will use simple past or present tense to express the same meaning.

So particularly if facing exams, it seems that students of English have to decide which kind of English they want to learn.

[philo2009]

Originally Posted by engee30

It will be the first time I have flown in a plane. (the instance of my flying in a plane will be an experience - the moment I am on that plane, I will be able to say I have never flown before, and since the future marker will is already in place, there's no need to use the Future Perfect Simple tense)

To all students - never have I seen other forms than the ones mentioned above used in textbooks or in any other stuff designed to help students prepare for a test or an exam.

The present perfect in this case rather than the future perfect is a frequently accepted 'abridged' form, probably considered on grounds of simplicity more suitable for learners than the longer full form.

[svartnik]

Originally Posted by engee30

This will be the first time I...
a) will have eaten snails.
or
b) have eaten snails.
or maybe something else.

Please help me.

This is the title of the story:
Tense simplification in subordinate clauses

If the main verb of the sentence makes clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the sub clause.
The present perfect instead of the future perfect is used to express the idea of completion.

According to Swan:

I will phone you when I have finished.
I will phone you when I will have finished.

Future verb is necessary for future reference in the sub clause if the verb in the main clause refers to the present or a different time in the future:

I do not know where she will be tomorrow.
I do not know where she is tomorrow.

I will hide it where she will never find it
I will hide it where she never finds it.

[philo2009]

Originally Posted by svartnik

This is the title of the story:
Tense simplification in subordinate clauses

If the main verb of the sentence makes clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the sub clause.
The present perfect instead of the future perfect is used to express the idea of completion.

According to Swan:

I will phone you when I have finished.
I will phone you when I will have finished.

Future verb is necessary for future reference in the sub clause if the verb in the main clause refers to the present or a different time in the future:

I do not know where she will be tomorrow.
I do not know where she is tomorrow.

I will hide it where she will never find it
I will hide it where she never finds it.

An apposite summary, Svartnik. It should, however, be additionally noted that in the case of

I will phone you when I have finished.

versus

*I will phone you when I will have finished.

, omission of 'will' is obligatory, not merely an idiomatic option, on account of the subordinate being an adverbial temporal clause (of future reference).

In contrast, in the case of

That will be the first time I (will) have flown solo.

omission is a true option, the subordinate being a simple adjectival relative modifying NP 'the first time'.

[philo2009]

Originally Posted by 2006

It'll be the first time I visit The Eiffel Tower.

This will be the first time I eat snails.

Certainly not acceptable in BrE, and I would seriously question how many AmE speakers would accept this collocation of tenses, at least for formal/careful use.

[2006]

Originally Posted by philo2009

Certainly not acceptable in BrE, and I would seriously question how many AmE speakers would accept this collocation of tenses, at least for formal/careful use.

What exactly do you think is wrong with those sentences? You said earlier that AmE speakers tend to use simpler construction.

I don't see anything wrong with them; you are just expressing your prejudice toward perfect tense.

[philo2009]

Originally Posted by 2006

What exactly do you think is wrong with those sentences? You said earlier that AmE speakers tend to use simpler construction.

I don't see anything wrong with them; you are just expressing your prejudice toward perfect tense.

1. BrE requires the present perfect in the clausal construction, as has already been noted a number of times.

2. If you had actually taken the trouble to read my earlier post, you would know that my comments with regard to simpler means of expression were confined to the alternative infinitival construction. At no time did I suggest that a simple present tense clausal construction, of the type that you propose, was an option in any variety of standard English.

3. The very fact that you would suggest such, combined with grammatical errors in your post, lead me to infer that you are in fact not - despite your claim to be such - a native speaker of English and are therefore not competent to offer advice on this forum.

I have nothing more to say to you.