Relative clauses places: where/which

[bombo109]

Hi,

I was reading under relative clauses that with places you should use where.

e.g. "Switzerland, where salaries are twice the European average, has a very low rate of unemployment."

but if this is so, why can't we use where in the next sentence and we use which instead?

"Seoul, which has a population of 10 million, is the capital of South Korea."

Please help quickly as it's for a class for tomorrow.

[Teia]

Originally Posted by bombo109

Hi,
I was reading under relative clauses that with places you should use where.
e.g. "Switzerland, where salaries are twice the European average, has a very low rate of unemployment."
but if this is so, why can't we use where in the next sentence and we use which instead?
"Seoul, which has a population of 10 million, is the capital of South Korea."
Please help quickly as it's for a class for tomorrow.

Switzerland [is the place] where salaries are ... - - Which Switzerland ? Switzerland, where....

Seoul, which has a ... - a relative clause - gives an extrainformation about Seoul

A relative clause is a clause which describes the referent of a head noun or pronoun


I hope it helps,


Teia

[bombo109]

Originally Posted by teia_petrescu

Switzerland [is the place] where salaries are ... - - Which Switzerland ? Switzerland, where....
Seoul, which has a ... - a relative clause - gives an extrainformation about Seoul
A relative clause is a clause which describes the referent of a head noun or pronoun
I hope it helps,
Teia

Thanks Teia,

But I'm afraid it still doesn't clarify things for me.
I know that both sentences contain undefined relative clauses ie. they give extra information about the country, especially as they are given as examples of undefined clauses in an English book:-

1) "where salaries are twice the European average,"
2) "which has a population of 10 million,"

[mehmetmamger]

Originally Posted by bombo109

Hi,
I was reading under relative clauses that with places you should use where.
e.g. "Switzerland, where salaries are twice the European average, has a very low rate of unemployment."
but if this is so, why can't we use where in the next sentence and we use which instead?
"Seoul, which has a population of 10 million, is the capital of South Korea."
Please help quickly as it's for a class for tomorrow.

In the first sentence Switzerland is used as an adveb of place, but in the second sentence Seoul is used as a subject. Let me explain by changing your sentences:

Switzerland has a very low rate of unemployment. Salaries are twice the European average in this country.

Seoul is the capital of South Korea. This country has a population of 10 million.

General tips to understand the structure:
1- Where cannot be used before a main verb, while which can.
2- Try to put the noun which is modified into the relative clause. If it takes in/on or at preposition in front of itself, you need a "WHERE" or "prep + which" as a relative adverb.

[bombo109]

Originally Posted by mehmetmamger

In the first sentence Switzerland is used as an adveb of place, but in the second sentence Seoul is used as a subject. Let me explain by changing your sentences:

Switzerland has a very low rate of unemployment. Salaries are twice the European average in this country.

Seoul is the capital of South Korea. This country has a population of 10 million.

General tips to understand the structure:
1- Where cannot be used before a main verb, while which can.
2- Try to put the noun which is modified into the relative clause. If it takes in/on or at preposition in front of itself, you need a WHERE or prep + which to as a relative adverb.

That's great!

That makes it much clearer! I'll be able to explain it easily enough tomorrow now.

Thanks very much mehmetmamger!

[Teia]

In addition to what Mehmetmamger has already explained, I`ll add :


Look at these examples:
J : I live in a building which has 40 storeys .
M : I live in a building where has 40 storeys.

If you want to use "where" instead of "which" in the above sentence, follow the structural rule of a main clause :

Subject + finite verb:
M : I live in a building where there are 40 storeys.

Some students see "which" and "where" as equivalent when they are used as relative pronouns. Although "which" and "where" may be similar in meaning in some cases, they require different structural elements when they are used as relative pronouns.

A relative adverb [ "where" is here a relative adverb] can be used instead of a relative pronoun plus preposition. This often makes the sentence easier to understand .

e.g.:
1.This is the shop in which I bought my bike.
2.This is the shop where I bought my bike

"Where"[ "when" and "why", as well] are not omitted in non-defying relative clauses. Where, when and why can be used instead of a relative pronoun after a noun.

"In which" and "where" are interchangeable but not always.


Notice these changes:

"In which"/" at which" can become "where" when describing places.
e.g. There are many universities in the U.S. and other countries in which/ where AI research is being conducted.
but Acoustics is a branch of Physics in which the properties of sounds are studied. (why not "where"?Because it does not define the place)
Airports are places at which/ where special attention is paid
to the weather.
but The temperature at which water boils depends on the pressure. (Why not "where"? Because it does not define the place or location]


Regards,

[mehmetmamger]

You're welcome bombo109.