'just' and 'already' with the simple past?

[dihen]

So a British speaker would not accept this, or would they?
`
Why can't they come today?
I just/already told you why.

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by dihen

So a British speaker would not accept this, or would they?
`
Why can't they come today?
I just/already told you why.

Googled, UK pages only;

Results 1 - 10 of about 230 for "I've just told you".

Results 1 - 10 of about 991 for "I just told you".

Results 1 - 10 of about 9,250 for "I already told you".

Results 1 - 10 of about 12,000 for "I've already told you".

[Red5]

Originally Posted by dihen

So a British speaker would not accept this, or would they?
`
Why can't they come today?
I just/already told you why.

I would, certainly.

[BobK]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

.
.
.
So it would be normal to hear "I just ate a chicken drumstick and..." in standard BrE; but unusual to hear "No, thank you, I just ate".
MrP

That's the way I hear it. I'm aware of the tendency among careful speakers to apply the 'rule' that just and already require the use of the present perfect, I even conform to it myself (mostly). But the tendency is dying out, and will be dead in a generation or two - I suspect. And the foot in the door that's letting the change in is the case where the present doesn't overlap with the past: when a BE speaker refuses a meal with the words 'No thanks, I've just eaten' - the 'presentness' of the present is uppermost in the speaker's mind (because of the fulness of the speaker's stomach).

So my gut feeling tends to be prescriptivist, but I have to admit that a change is happening

b

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by BobK

That's the way I hear it. I'm aware of the tendency among careful speakers to apply the 'rule' that just and already require the use of the present perfect, I even conform to it myself (mostly). But the tendency is dying out, and will be dead in a generation or two - I suspect. And the foot in the door that's letting the change in is the case where the present doesn't overlap with the past: when a BE speaker refuses a meal with the words 'No thanks, I've just eaten' - the 'presentness' of the present is uppermost in the speaker's mind (because of the fulness of the speaker's stomach).

So my gut feeling tends to be prescriptivist, but I have to admit that a change is happening

b

I agree with you that if the focus of the speaker is on the "presentness" of the full stomach, the present perfect is quite natural. However, if the speaker's focus is on the actual act of eating, that act has been completed in the past. This should and does lead to variations in choice.

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by dihen

So a British speaker would not accept this, or would they?
`
Why can't they come today?
I just/already told you why.

Curiously,

1. I just told you why!

sounds quite ordinary to me; cf.

2. I told you why five minutes ago!

But

3. I already told you why!

has a little oddness to it, for me. For some reason, I lean towards a perfect tense (perhaps because of the implicit temporal contrast in "already"), e.g.

4. I've already told you why!
5. I had already told him why; but he kept on asking.

But I'm not sure I would go so far as "not accepting" it. US sitcoms, online contact, etc. have taken the edge off it.

MrP

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

Curiously,

1. I just told you why!

sounds quite ordinary to me; cf.

2. I told you why five minutes ago!

But

3. I already told you why!

has a little oddness to it, for me. For some reason, I lean towards a perfect tense (perhaps because of the implicit temporal contrast in "already"), e.g.

4. I've already told you why!
5. I had already told him why; but he kept on asking.

But I'm not sure I would go so far as "not accepting" it. US sitcoms, online contact, etc. have taken the edge off it.

MrP

Sitcoms will ruin the language sooner or later.

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by BobK

That's the way I hear it. I'm aware of the tendency among careful speakers to apply the 'rule' that just and already require the use of the present perfect, I even conform to it myself (mostly).

There is no rule, Coffa. There was a prescription but those aren't rules.

But the tendency is dying out, and will be dead in a generation or two - I suspect. And the foot in the door that's letting the change in is the case where the present doesn't overlap with the past: when a BE speaker refuses a meal with the words 'No thanks, I've just eaten' - the 'presentness' of the present is uppermost in the speaker's mind (because of the fulness of the speaker's stomach).
So my gut feeling tends to be prescriptivist, but I have to admit that a change is happening

The present perfect tends to be used in more formal situations.

It's also used to make a past action important/pertinent to the present situation.But it's not required [again, there's no rule] because ENLs have a choice as to whether they want to make a past action important to now/seem important to now.

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