subtle distinctions between the s.p. and the p.p.

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by Trex

Hi, Mike. Yes, it helped a lot. Thank you.

PS 1: Is it "hope" or "hoped"?
PS 2: Just out of curiosity, are you Caseopea

It is "hope".

No, I'm not Cas. I'm MikeNewYork.

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by riverkid

If that man had won the $400 in a series of wins, then it's certainly possible, maybe even likely he would use the present perfect. That said, in casual speech, there is a pretty good chance that a person would/could still use, "I won $400."

We also use the present perfect to add importance to past actions but speakers can choose to downplay the importance. Choosing the simple past makes the winning "no big deal"; "not really important" "something I do often"; "$400 bucks is just pocket change"; ...

In another circumstance, if that win had come in one pot, one hand, then it would be very natural to use the past simple, though again, the PP is still a possibility.

Context is everything. This is one of the major problems facing ESLs. They are taught these issues in a grammar desert. Native children of any language grasp these differences easily, because the language that surrounds them is so contextually rich.

I agree about the problems that face ESL students. I agree that native children grasp the differences, but it is interesting that the choices between these two tenses is so different in AmE and BrE. There is more to this than just context.

[Trex]

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

It is "hope".

No, I'm not Cas. I'm MikeNewYork.

Oh, do you know Cas.? He seems to have disappeared. I thought he might have changed his nick.

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by Trex

Oh, do you know Cas.? He seems to have disappeared. I thought you might have changed your nick.

I think Cas is a she. I am told that she will be returning soon. She has been very busy with her work.

[Trex]

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

I think Cas is a she.

hm... ok.

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

I am told that she will be returning soon. She has been very busy with her work.

good news.

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

I agree about the problems that face ESL students. I agree that native children grasp the differences, but it is interesting that the choices between these two tenses is so different in AmE and BrE. There is more to this than just context.

Mike,

I'm not sure if your comments suggest that I was describing the present perfect of BrE for I wasn't. What I described in my last post is how the present perfect works for NaE.

I feel, though I have nothing to back it up now, is that the differences that exist between BrE and NaE wrt this issue are NOT major differences but the degree of difference for fundamentally the same structure.

Certainly the present perfect of experience and continuation are more or less the same. The major difference comes for the present perfect relating to consequence. Here, I suggest the difference is a matter of degree.

I've read some that suggests that this particular aspect of BrE is being influenced by NaE. Perhaps in a generation or two, the usage will more resemble the NaE one.

[rewboss]

From my observations, it seems to me that in American English, if a connection between a past action and the present is implied elsewhere, the present perfect is not required. Hence:

BrE: I have just made a cake.
AmE: I just made a cake.

Since "just" already implies that the consequence of the action -- the cake itself -- is in existence, in AmE there is no need to restate that fact by using the present perfect.

Whether AmE rules will eventually start to influence BrE grammar is hard to say. Not so long ago, British doomsayers never tired of complaining about how the English language has been Americanized due to the influence of Hollywood. Recently, though, I have observed British English idioms creeping into American speech -- "bum" as a slang word for the buttocks is one example. This may not be surprising with the success of British comedies in the US, like Four Weddings and a Funeral, Bend it like Beckham and others -- not to mention the Austin Powers movies. Factor in the influence of the internet, and, to be honest, I think it could go either way.

But even within Britain and within America, and after a couple of generations of the mass media, there remain regional accents and dialect forms that can still cause confusion. Get ten young people from all parts of the UK together and ask them what they call the little black shoes they have to wear in the sports hall, and you'll get at least four wildly different answers.

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by rewboss

From my observations, it seems to me that in American English, if a connection between a past action and the present is implied elsewhere, the present perfect is not required. Hence:

BrE: I have just made a cake.
AmE: I just made a cake.

Since "just" already implies that the consequence of the action -- the cake itself -- is in existence, in AmE there is no need to restate that fact by using the present perfect.

Whether AmE rules will eventually start to influence BrE grammar is hard to say. Not so long ago, British doomsayers never tired of complaining about how the English language has been Americanized due to the influence of Hollywood. Recently, though, I have observed British English idioms creeping into American speech -- "bum" as a slang word for the buttocks is one example. This may not be surprising with the success of British comedies in the US, like Four Weddings and a Funeral, Bend it like Beckham and others -- not to mention the Austin Powers movies. Factor in the influence of the internet, and, to be honest, I think it could go either way.

But even within Britain and within America, and after a couple of generations of the mass media, there remain regional accents and dialect forms that can still cause confusion. Get ten young people from all parts of the UK together and ask them what they call the little black shoes they have to wear in the sports hall, and you'll get at least four wildly different answers.

I agree. Mass media and the Internet are bringing our Englishes back together. There will be compromises and acceptances on both sides.

[riverkid]

Verrrrry interesting; a Google 'UK pages only' search gives us this;

Results 1 - 10 of about 79,900 for "I just made".

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,100 for "I've just made".

Results 1 - 10 of about 21,500 for "I have just made".

====================

Results 1 - 10 of about 112,000 for "I just went".

Results 1 - 10 of about 175,000 for "I have just been.


I wonder what a corpus search would reveal.