since + past tenses

[hela]

Dear teachers,

I would be extremely grateful if you could clear out my doubts about which tenses to use with the conjunction of time -or reason- "since".

1) I'd like to know which tense we can use (in academic English and not in everyday speech) with the time conjunction "since". Le simple past is unanimously chosen but what about the present perfect?

Examples:

a) It is / has been a long time since I SAW her. 100% correct
b) It is / has been a long time since I HAVE SEEN her. (also academic ?)

(by the way are both forms "It is a long time" and "It has been a long time" formally accepted?)

c) It's been a week since I SAW my friends / I GRADUATED.
d) It's been a week since I HAVE SEEN my friends / I HAVE GRADUATED.

e) I've been cheating on you since I KNEW you. (?)
f) I've been cheating on you since I HAVE KNOWN you.

g) How long is it since you KNEW her ? (??)
h) How long is it since you HAVE KNOWN her?
i) How long HAVE you KNOWN her ?

2) Is it true that we cannot use the present tense in the main clause when "since" expresses time but can only use it when "since" introduces a reason? However, let's look at the following sentences, can't they be made of time clauses?

a) She LOOKS quite different since her illness. (time clause ?)
b) He IS SHOOTING the most expensive film since Star Wars. (correct ?)
c) My mother LOOKS younger since she dyed her hair. (time or reason clause ?)
d) He LOOKS much younger since he shaved off his beard. (time or reason)
e) She no longer VISITS since she got married. (time or reason?)

At some point I thought that the present tense could be used with the time expression "since" only with state verbs but "visits" above is a verb of process, so what is the correct answer?

Thank you very much for your help.
Hela

[MrPedantic]

Hello Hela

Here are my answers (BrE):

1) I'd like to know which tense we can use (in academic English and not in everyday speech) with the time conjunction "since". Le simple past is unanimously chosen but what about the present perfect?
a) It is / has been a long time since I SAW her. 100% correct
b) It is / has been a long time since I HAVE SEEN her. (also academic ?)
c) It's been a week since I SAW my friends / I GRADUATED.

— All these forms seem fine to me; the present perfect in each case keeps one eye on the past; the simple present simply presents a fact.

d) It's been a week since I HAVE SEEN my friends / I HAVE GRADUATED.
— friends, yes, as you can see them at different times during a given period; but graduating, perhaps not, as you only graduate once.

e) I've been cheating on you since I KNEW you. (?)
f) I've been cheating on you since I HAVE KNOWN you.
— I would add "ever" before "since".

g) How long is it since you KNEW her ? (??)
— This is a little strange; if he has stopped knowing her, he won't know how long it is since he knew her!

h) How long is it since you HAVE KNOWN her?
— I would change "since" to "that".

i) How long HAVE you KNOWN her ?
— Fine!

2) Is it true that we cannot use the present tense in the main clause when "since" expresses time but can only use it when "since" introduces a reason? However, let's look at the following sentences, can't they be made of time clauses?
a) She LOOKS quite different since her illness. (time clause ?)
— Sounds ok to me, though I would probably use the present perfect instead of the simple present. Time.

b) He IS SHOOTING the most expensive film since Star Wars. (correct ?)
— Sounds ok to me. Time.

c) My mother LOOKS younger since she dyed her hair. (time or reason clause ?)
— as 2a. Time.

d) He LOOKS much younger since he shaved off his beard. (time or reason)
— as 2a. Time.

e) She no longer VISITS since she got married. (time or reason?)
— Ok. Time. Or "She doesn't visit us, since she got married."

<...At some point I thought that the present tense could be used with the time expression "since" only with state verbs but "visits" above is a verb of process, so what is the correct answer?...>

Sometimes sentences that sounded fine on a Tuesday seem very strange on a Wednesday. I'll look at them again tomorrow and see if I still agree with myself, before answering!

All the best,

MrP

[hela]

Dear Mrp,

I loved this one

Sometimes sentences that sounded fine on a Tuesday seem very strange on a Wednesday. I'll look at them again tomorrow and see if I still agree with myself, before answering!

So I'll let you think about all this before asking you my other questions!

Kind regards,
Hela

[MrPedantic]

Sorry, Hela, I had to give it an extra day! But I think I still agree with myself; except that I'm now not sure about this one:

e) I've been cheating on you since I KNEW you. (?)

Though if you insert "first" before "knew", it seems fine.

<...At some point I thought that the present tense could be used with the time expression "since" only with state verbs but "visits" above is a verb of process, so what is the correct answer?...>

For instance:

1. Since her mother died, she has visited the cemetery every day.
2. Since her mother died, she visits the cemetery every day.

Although #2 seems more comfortable, I'm not sure I would want to call #2 incorrect. It implies an expectation that she will continue to visit the cemetery every day; in #1, this sense of the future is much weaker, and the sense of the past much stronger.

Have a good Friday,

MrP

[Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim]

a) It is / has been a long time since I SAW her. 100% correct
b) It is / has been a long time since I HAVE SEEN her. (also academic ?)

Since usually introduces the departure point of time. Such a point of time can only be past simple and not present perfect:
I has been been a long time since I saw her.

I don't deny that some people use present perfect which to my taste is wrong.

If you say:
It is instead of it has been...
As a speaker you don't show interest in time no matter whether it is specific or not. It is only a statement.

[Philly]

Originally Posted by hela

e) She no longer VISITS since she got married. (time or reason?)
At some point I thought that the present tense could be used with the time expression "since" only with state verbs but "visits" above is a verb of process, so what is the correct answer?

When you say 'no longer visits' you are in effect saying that 'her regular (habitual) visits have ceased'. This sentence also implies a new habit (no visits). If you say "She hasn't visited since she got married", the sense of the past habit is lost completely, and the sense that the "new habit" will continue into the future is also weaker.
.

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim

I don't deny that some people use present perfect which to my taste is wrong.

Much depends on the context. In some cases, the speaker wishes to express "since-ness" not from a particular point, but from the beginning of a particular period; and so the present perfect is appropriate.

(This isn't a new linguistic phenomenon, as these C18/C19 examples attest:

1. Scott: "...ever since I have taken up this wild trade, I have made a vow to prefer beauty to wealth..."

2. Fielding: "...the beer was some of the best I have met with since I have been in town..."

3. Hawthorne: "...This subject has taken hold of my mind with the strangest tenacity of clutch since I have lodged in yonder old gable..."

4. Hawthorne: "...Latterly, since I have begun to know him better, I feel it to be not quite right to look closely into his moods..."

5. Stevenson: "...It seems a long while since I have heard from you..."

6. Trollope: "... I used to know well what it was before I knew you; but since I have had the hope of having you in my house, I have banished it utterly..."

7. Morris: "...It is five days since I have spoken to a son of Adam..."

8. Austen: "...It is so long since I have seen her, except now and then for a moment accidentally in town!..."

9. Dickens: "...I have felt an interest in Mr. Carker ever since I have been here..."

All the best,

MrP

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by hela

Dear teachers,

I would be extremely grateful if you could clear out my doubts about which tenses to use with the conjunction of time -or reason- "since".

1) I'd like to know which tense we can use (in academic English and not in everyday speech) with the time conjunction "since". Le simple past is unanimously chosen but what about the present perfect?

...

Thank you very much for your help.
Hela

None of those examples would ever occur in the academic register. There are clearly examples of everyday speech.

[Dr. Jamshid Ibrahim]

MrPedantic wrote: Much depends on the context. In some cases, the speaker wishes to express "since-ness" not from a particular point, but from the beginning of a particular period; and so the present perfect is appropriate


While I do appreciate your way of discussion I would like to answer as follows:
1. True much depends upon the context, the speaker's view and the meaning of "since". You are however, confusing two functions of since: since as a preposition and as a conjunction of time. If the emphasis is on the point of departure ( since being a preposition) something like: since 1998, the point of time is certaily past and not present perfect.

2. In sentences about changes present continuous/simple can be used instead of present perfect in the main clause when since is used as preposition:
You are sleeping much better since your swimming course
She doesn't phone since she got married.

3. Since can be used as a conjuction of time introducing its own clause, the tense can then be past or perfect:
I have known her since we were neighbours
I have known her since we have worked together.

4. If you refer to a finished point of time present perfect is used:
It is now a year since we have signed the agreement.

[hela]

Dear Dr. J.I.,

According to what you have just said (in # 3 & 4), I don't understand your earlier point:

Since usually introduces the departure point of time. Such a point of time can only be past simple and not present perfect:
It has been been a long time since I saw her.

I don't deny that some people use present perfect which to my taste is wrong.

Would you accept now the sentence:"It has been a long time since I HAVE SEEN her"?

One more thing, in the sentence "she doesn't phone since she got married", isn't "since" a conjunction?

All the best,
Hela