Forum newsfeeds
Forum Newsfeeds


Sites for Teachers

Sites for Teachers


Go Back   UsingEnglish.com ESL Forum > Learning English > Ask a Teacher

Notices

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-Dec-2006, 11:04
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: England
Posts: 2,059
Current Location: SE England
First Language: British English
Thanks: 2
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts
MrPedantic will become famous soon enough
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

I would agree that (in my experience of BrE, at least):

1. Fronted "whom" (e.g. "Whom did you give the book to?") will sound odd to many (or most) native speakers; "Who...to?" is by far the more common form.

2. "Whom" after a preposition (e.g. "I met several people with whom I later had a business relationship") is still quite common, both in speech and in written English; especially where the relative clause is quite long.

From discussions elsewhere, it seems to me that the pseudo-dative¹ who(m), e.g. "who did you give the book?", "who did you write?", may sound odder to BrE ears than AmE.

MrP

¹ I think "whom" derives from the OE dative; which may explain its uncomfortable status, in ordinary English.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-Dec-2006, 13:44
rewboss's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: England
Posts: 1,574
Current Location: Germany
First Language: English
Thanks: 0
Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts
rewboss is on a distinguished road
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Not wishing to turn this into an argument, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
You can't possibly deny it in I gave it to Mom and I gave it (a dog) a piece of bread reflects different relations between the subject and the object.
I'm not sure what you mean here, but how can you tell the difference between the direct and the indirect object in each sentence? It's not the case, because there is no difference at all between "it" as a direct object and "it" as an indirect object. The only difference is that "to" appears in the first sentence, indicating that the second object is indirect; in the second sentence, the omission of "to" indicates that the second object is direct.

Russian, on the other hand, has a well-developed case system with, as you say, six cases and at least two subcases. You could rearrange the words in a Russian clause quite radically and the meaning would not change; in English, if you rearrange the words, the meaning often changes.

I don't know what nationality crussell is, so I don't know how useful this discussion is to him/her.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-Dec-2006, 06:37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Belarus
Posts: 1,335
First Language: Russian
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Humble is on a distinguished road
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

No argument, God forbid.
Yes, my statement was badly worded. Of course it does not reflect anything, only it's position does.
I meant, though it (unlike who-whom) is unchangeable, the Russian speaker will easily tell you whether it is nominative, accusative or dative in any sentence, because we are used to parsing cases from school. I thihk it isn't a problem for German speakers either.
BTW do you happen to know any sites where linguistic scholars would have grammar discussions?
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-Dec-2006, 21:05
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: England
Posts: 2,059
Current Location: SE England
First Language: British English
Thanks: 2
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts
MrPedantic will become famous soon enough
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
BTW do you happen to know any sites where linguistic scholars would have grammar discussions?
We are duly put in our place...



Ah well. Back to my Beano Annual.

MrP
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 06:06
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Belarus
Posts: 1,335
First Language: Russian
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Humble is on a distinguished road
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Hi, MrP,
No offence meant.
I just presumed such forums as this one cater mostly for ESLs and discuss practical usage, not purely academic niceties. I can't help feeling a bit guilty (I may bore people) when I have a temptation to get into depths and split hairs.
Yes, I've seen long threads on linguistic discussions here, but I found myself shunning them as sometimes they leave me with a heavy heart.

I thought I'd find a site that would represent different grammar schools. I don't agree, for instance, that commemoration serves as an adjective in commemoration ceremony and I'd like to find out somewhere if I'm the only one to think so (searching for justification of course ).

Regards
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 06:51
MikeNewYork's Avatar
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Country: USA
Posts: 6,095
Current Location: New York
First Language: American English
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
MikeNewYork is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
Hi, MrP,
No offence meant.
I just presumed such forums as this one cater mostly for ESLs and discuss practical usage, not purely academic niceties. I can't help feeling a bit guilty (I may bore people) when I have a temptation to get into depths and split hairs.
Yes, I've seen long threads on linguistic discussions here, but I found myself shunning them as sometimes they leave me with a heavy heart.

I thought I'd find a site that would represent different grammar schools. I don't agree, for instance, that commemoration serves as an adjective in commemoration ceremony and I'd like to find out somewhere if I'm the only one to think so (searching for justification of course ).

Regards
Do you disagree that "commemoration" tells us what kind of "ceremony" it is?
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 10:25
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 58
Current Location: United Kingdom
First Language: English
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
blueabell2go is on a distinguished road
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

I was intrigued by Rewboss's comment that Russian has six cases and two sub-cases. From what I remember learning at school (almost 40 years ago)Russian has 6 cases:
nominative, accusative, genitive, dative, instrumental and prepositional. I can't say that I remember learning about subcases.
Could Rewboss or some of the native Russian speakers explain this.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 11:17
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Belarus
Posts: 1,335
First Language: Russian
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Humble is on a distinguished road
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

I don't seem to know abt the subcases either. I'll find that out.

Yes, Mike, I do agree it tells, but I'd put it this way: commemoration is a noun that serves as an attribute. The difference is that as denotes a function, while adjective can't, it's from morhology. Sorry if I repeat myself.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 12:17
MikeNewYork's Avatar
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Country: USA
Posts: 6,095
Current Location: New York
First Language: American English
Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
MikeNewYork is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
I don't seem to know abt the subcases either. I'll find that out.

Yes, Mike, I do agree it tells, but I'd put it this way: commemoration is a noun that serves as an attribute. The difference is that as denotes a function, while adjective can't, it's from morhology. Sorry if I repeat myself.
Well, you will be happy to know that many people refer to that type of noun as an attributive noun.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-Dec-2006, 14:12
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: England
Posts: 2,059
Current Location: SE England
First Language: British English
Thanks: 2
Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts
MrPedantic will become famous soon enough
Default Re: When to use who or whom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humble View Post
Hi, MrP,
No offence meant.
Sorry, Humble, I was only joking!

Quote:
I've seen long threads on linguistic discussions here, but I found myself shunning them as sometimes they leave me with a heavy heart.
And a heavy phone-bill, if you pay as you go.

All the best,

MrP
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
whom, who

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:41.


vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC5
Copyright © 2002 - 2008 UsingEnglish.com