relative clauses (that vs. who)

[Jason72]

Originally Posted by Lenka

Hmmm... Maybe I shouldn't try to understand it, but simply learn it...

It is crucial for you to understand! It would be hard to learn a language without understanding and just memorising things...

Good luck!

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by Lenka

Jane's the best tennis player ____ has been selected from that club.

a) whose
b) which
c) that
d) who

The right answer is supposed to be c) that. However, I don't understand why "who" isn't used instead! Why?

Jane's the best person ____ has been selected from that club.

What now? There's something more afoot but I can't put my finger on it.

There are actually some limited situations wherein 'which' is used for people.

[fiona bramble]

Originally Posted by Casiopea

Good question. Take another look at this structure, Jane's the best tennis player. It's copular ('s = is). The subject complement here, a title, the best tennis palyer, refers to a person, Jane. So, the best pronoun for that referential pair would be that, not which, because that can refer to people and things, whereas which cannot.

Does that help?

Hi C,
Yes, you are absolutely right about the superlative + that combo. I just have a quick question. I recently replied to a thread saying that "which" could not be used as a relative pronoun referring to people (in this case it was "family"). Anglika & engee30 both though "which" was fine. I suggested perhaps if the family was considered a unit (thing-like!) then maybe it was possible but it didn't sit well with me. What do you think?
F

[Delmobile]

I tried to think of a family/which pairing that sounded "right" and came up with something on the lines of "The McGowin family, which had always controlled local politics..." or "The Smith family, which continues to increase in number but not in wealth..."

But I think both examples treat the family as a "thing." You wouldn't say, "But my greatest thanks must be reserved for my family, which never stopped supporting me through this often difficult and trying time." Well, I wouldn't anyway. :)

[Casiopea]

Originally Posted by fiona bramble

Hi C,
I recently replied to a thread saying that "which" could not be used as a relative pronoun referring to people (in this case it was "family"). Anglika & engee30 both though "which" was fine. I suggested perhaps if the family was considered a unit (thing-like!) then maybe it was possible but it didn't sit well with me. What do you think?
F

fiona, I agree with you, Anglika, and engee30, and, not to forget, Delmobile.

The noun family has more than one referent. It refers to the unit itself, the group (a thing) as well as to the people in that group.

People: I'm talking about the family who ...
Unit: I'm talking about the family that / which ...



Lenka, the phrase the best person houses the noun person, yes, but that noun is also modified by an adjective, one that turns the noun phrase into name for a person. Names are not people, which is why that, not who works best with your example sentence.

Does that help?

[Lenka]

Originally Posted by Casiopea

Lenka, the phrase the best person houses the noun person, yes, but that noun is also modified by an adjective, one that turns the noun phrase into name for a person. Names are not people, which is why that, not who works best with your example sentence.

Does that help?

Casiopea, thank you very much for your effort to explain it to me, bu it seems to be quite meaningless . I just don't understand it.
I'll try asking a Czech English teacher (Can I say it like this? I mean an English teacher whose mother language is Czech.).

[Casiopea]

Originally Posted by Lenka

I'll try asking a Czech English teacher (Can I say it like this? I mean an English teacher whose mother language is Czech.).

Yes.

Note,

• 1. That
     a) For people and things and in conversation.
     b) After the following: all, everything, something, anything, nothing, none, little, few, much.
     c) After superlatives; e.g., the best.

Source: Relative Pronoun / ESL Lesson

Note also,

NOTE: It is preferable to use that (not which) after the following words: all, any(thing), every (thing), few, little, many, much, no(thing), none, some(thing), and after superlatives.

Source: Using Relative Clauses for ESL EFL TESOL TEFL TOEFL English Students Teachers and Classes - Upper Level and Advanced Level English Learning Skills

[Casiopea]

Lenka, here's another great source:

English Course for Native Czech Speakers,
Common English Grammar Problems

[Lenka]

Casiopea, thank you very much!

So, there's nothing to understand about the superlatives + that... One has to remember it (as well as many other rules in English).

As to the last link you "introduced" (can it be used in such a context?) in your reply, it has no real connection with Czech, in my opinion, does it? Maybe I haven't noticed it... Anyway, I do own the great book English Grammar in Use (and Vocabulary in Use etc.), so I can study much of the grammar problems there... (But this doesn't refer to the usage of that/who with superlatives - the author doesn't mention it at all... Or should I have a look at the advanced level of English Grammar in Use?). Thanks for the link, anyway .


By the way, could you correct my English, please? At least some of the most prominent mistakes I've made...