Forum newsfeeds
Forum Newsfeeds


Sites for Teachers

Sites for Teachers




Go Back   UsingEnglish.com ESL Forum > Learning English > Ask a Teacher

Notices

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 17-Jun-2007, 22:51
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Nigeria
Posts: 77
Current Location: United States
First Language: English
Member Type: Student or Learner
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
kooiu is on a distinguished road
Default Indefinite/Definite Articles

I have made up my mind to read in between the line to understand how words are used, especially articles.

I want to know if A, B or C is the correct way to reframe the following sentence:

It structured the perceptions of those involved in the international business of development, particularly those in the government of the developed countries.

A. It structured the perceptions of people involved in the international business of development, particularly people in the government of the developed countries.

B. It structured the perceptions of some/many/most people involved in the international business of development, particularly some/many/most people in the government of the developed countries.

C. It structured the perceptions of the people involved in the international business of development, particularly the people in the government of the developed countries.

Thank you for your help so far.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 18-Jun-2007, 13:16
Editor, UsingEnglish.com
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Country: UK
Posts: 25,755
Current Location: Phnom Penh
First Language: English
Member Type: English Teacher
Thanks: 6
Thanked 591 Times in 517 Posts
Tdol has disabled reputation
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

I think that 'those' implies all of them, so c) is the best choice for me, though a) is also OK. I think b) is changing the meaning a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 18-Jun-2007, 15:16
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Nigeria
Posts: 77
Current Location: United States
First Language: English
Member Type: Student or Learner
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
kooiu is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

Dear Tdol,
Thank you for your response. I also want to thank others on this site who have helped me improve my use of articles.

I know those refers to people/things far from the speaker/writer in space/time/discourse/mind. But I still have a problem with the correctness of (C).

This is because "those" is considered indefinite when used vaguely to refer to people or things (an unknown number of people/things or an unknown type of people/things). Hence "some" before people/things to replace "those" may be appropriate???? (not sure)

For example, Salaries are higher here than those (salaries/some salaries) in my country (is this correct?)

Since we do not know the number of the people involved, does "those" in the sentence in my original post suggest an indefinite/unknown number of people (an unknown type of people), or suggest exactness/exhaustiveness (all of the people)?

If "those" suggests exactness, could that come from "involved in"?

What precisely suggests exactness to make (C) correct?
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 18-Jun-2007, 15:58
bianca's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: sweden
Posts: 1,029
Current Location: stockholm
First Language: swedish
Member Type: Academic
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
bianca is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

I would re-write your sentence as follows:

It structured the perception of people (generally speaking) involved inthe international business of development, particularly those in the government...

It is the word "Particularly" before "those", which delineates a select few, or as you say exactness.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 20-Jun-2007, 16:10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Nigeria
Posts: 77
Current Location: United States
First Language: English
Member Type: Student or Learner
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
kooiu is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

Dear Bainca,
Then why "the" in the first introductory sentence below and not in the second?

1. Thee information you are referring to is a referent form.
2. Information previously referred to is a referent

Both are introductory statements to explain what a referent form and a referent are.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 20-Jun-2007, 17:08
Casiopea's Avatar
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,997
Current Location: China
First Language: English
Member Type: Other
Thanks: 0
Thanked 60 Times in 57 Posts
Casiopea will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

Quote:
Originally Posted by kooiu View Post
I want to know if A, B or C is the correct way to reframe the following sentence:

It structured the perceptions of those involved in the international business of development, particularly those in the government of the developed countries.
I agree. Choice C. is the best one.

A. is out. People, even though defined by in the international business of development is still general, whereas those is specific.

B. is out. Some/many/most people limit the noun people, whereas those does not.

C. is in. The makes the noun people specific.

Does that help?
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 20-Jun-2007, 17:39
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Nigeria
Posts: 77
Current Location: United States
First Language: English
Member Type: Student or Learner
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
kooiu is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

Dear Casiopea,
I agree with you that "the" makes "people involved" specific. I am still not sure if being specific means being identifiable/distinguishable to justify the use of "the".

For example, while "the people involved" is specific, we really do not know how many people.

I am still confused.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 20-Jun-2007, 18:09
Casiopea's Avatar
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,997
Current Location: China
First Language: English
Member Type: Other
Thanks: 0
Thanked 60 Times in 57 Posts
Casiopea will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

OK. What if we look at it from a different angle?

People in my class hate exams.
The people in my class hate exams.

In the first example, the noun people is general and define; in the second example, people is specific and defined. That is, the specifies which people; pinpoints it in space. We might not know which people, but by adding the, the author is making it clear that whoever the people are, the are known, at least to someone. Which is why you might hear someone ask the following question when given:

Max: The people in my class hate exams.
Pat: Which ones?

Does that help?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 20-Jun-2007, 18:55
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Country: Nigeria
Posts: 77
Current Location: United States
First Language: English
Member Type: Student or Learner
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
kooiu is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

But how correct I am to use "the" to refer to new information as in my original statements? May be there are rules to address this problem given that my dictionary indicates that "those" can be used vaguely (in an unclear way).

It structured the perceptions of those involved in the international business of development, particularly those in the government of the developed countries.

A.
It structured the perceptions of people involved in the international business of development, particularly people in the government of the developed countries.

B. It structured the perceptions of some/many/most people involved in the international business of development, particularly some/many/most people in the government of the developed countries.

C. It structured the perceptions of the people involved in the international business of development, particularly the people in the government of the developed countries.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 21-Jun-2007, 08:44
Casiopea's Avatar
VIP Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,997
Current Location: China
First Language: English
Member Type: Other
Thanks: 0
Thanked 60 Times in 57 Posts
Casiopea will become famous soon enough
Default Re: Indefinite/Definite Articles

Quote:
Originally Posted by kooiu View Post
But how correct I am to use "the" to refer to new information as in my original statements?
New information? My understanding is that you are trying to rephrase nominal those, the referent of which is vague, yes, and left open for interpretation;i.e., which people?, but it's nonetheless specific; i.e., those = certain people, neither defined nor limited in number; e.g., some, many, most.

Does that help?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
editing hashem Editing & Writing Topics 2 15-Jan-2008 00:52
some questions regarding the use of articles Unregistered Ask a Teacher 2 12-Jun-2007 08:33
what is indefenite articles & defenite articles ragharch Ask a Teacher 1 30-May-2007 13:39
Articles for common people huda23 Teaching English 6 28-Jan-2007 17:28
The articles erihime Ask a Teacher 5 05-Nov-2006 00:40


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 19:46.


vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright © 2002 - 2008 UsingEnglish.com