To tdol

[Taka]

Thank you for the clear example again, Mike.

(case a: ",conj (b)" included)
There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.

(case b: ",conj (b)" excluded)
I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

The truth is that I was home alone on Saturday night, and I hope you believe that.

Now, which case is more common, "case a" or "case b"?

When I asked tdol:

Originally Posted by Taka

Is it possible to generalize that if there is a "....that (a), conj (b)" construction, conj (b) is always included in the "that-clause"? Or, do you think it depends on the content?

then he said:

Originally Posted by tdol

Off-hand, I'd probably say we could,

So I thought "case a" was more usual. But it seems like you are saying that "case a" and "case b" would equally appear in English, depending on the content.

[Casiopea]

Included
There is deep suspicion that government, even if it is elected by the people, is the natural enemy of freedom.

All the best, :D

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by Taka

Thank you for the clear example again, Mike.

(case a: ",conj (b)" included)
There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.

(case b: ",conj (b)" excluded)
I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

The truth is that I was home alone on Saturday night, and I hope you believe that.

Now, which case is more common, "case a" or "case b"?

When I asked tdol:

then he said:

So I thought "case a" was more usual. But it seems like you are saying that "case a" and "case b" would equally appear in English, depending on the content.

I don't think I can give you statistics on frequency. My guess is that the "included" form is more common, simply because one would have a tendency to end the thought when one reaches the end of the noun clause -- wherever that end occurs. :wink:

[Taka]

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

I don't think I can give you statistics on frequency. My guess is that the "included" form is more common, simply because one would have a tendency to end the thought when one reaches the end of the noun clause -- wherever that end occurs.

I learned here in Japan that a comma is usually put to end the thought and to start new thought. Is it not necessary true?

[Tdol]

It could be true, but there will be plenty of cases where it is not true.

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by Taka

I learned here in Japan that a comma is usually put to end the thought and to start new thought. Is it not necessary true?

Commas are used for many things. Sometimes, they indicate a natural or obligatory pause. At other times, they are there for purely grammatical reasons. One could say that a compound sentence (with two independent clauses) is two thoughts, but one could also see it as one thought with two pieces.

[Taka]

Originally Posted by tdol

It could be true, but there will be plenty of cases where it is not true.

Originally Posted by MikeNewYork

Commas are used for many things. Sometimes, they indicate a natural or obligatory pause. At other times, they are there for purely grammatical reasons. One could say that a compound sentence (with two independent clauses) is two thoughts, but one could also see it as one thought with two pieces.

OK. I understand.

Thank you, teachears! I really enjoy learning English here!

[MikeNewYork]

Originally Posted by Taka

OK. I understand.

Thank you, teachears! I really enjoy learning English here!

Not half as much as we enjoy your questions. :D

[Tdol]

You do ask very interesting questions. Thanks.