To tdol

[Taka]

The sentence:

There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

Is "even if it is elected by the people." excluded from the "that-clause" above, or is it included?

Taka

[Tdol]

I think it's included:

Government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

This seems to work- it's just including elected governments in the enemy category before democrats start moaning. Elected governments are a subset of the enemy group.

[Taka]

I think it's included:

Government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

This seems to work- it's just including elected governments in the enemy category before democrats start moaning. Elected governments are a subset of the enemy group.;-)

Thank you, tdol!

Is it possible to generalize that if there is a "....that (a), conj (b)" construction, conj (b) is always included in the "that-clause"? Or, do you think it depends on the content?

[Tdol]

Off-hand, I'd probably say we could, but I'm sure there will be many examples where it doesn't follow. I'll try to think of some.

[Taka]

I'll try to think of some.;-)

OK. I'll be waiting for the examples to come.

Thanks.

[Taka]

How are your examples coming, tdol?

[Tdol]

It's exam season here and they're not. I'll try to get some time tonight.

[MikeNewYork]

The sentence:

There is deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if it is elected by the people.

Is "even if it is elected by the people." excluded from the "that-clause" above, or is it included?

Taka

I agree with TDOL. In this case, the "even" statement is part of the noun clause.

It doesn't always follow though.

I have a deep suspicion that government is the natural enemy of freedom, even if others disagree with me.

In that sentence, the "even" clause is part of the main clause.

Or at least that's how I see it. :wink:

[Tdol]

Good example, Mike.

[Taka]

Long time, no see, Mike! How (and where) have you been?

(Perhaps this person would be glad to hear from you:http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/vi...highlight=mike)

OK, what about this one?:

I lean toward the idea that wisdom comes with age, which you can bet no one young ever says or thinks. The truth is that a person of seventy is a totally different person than a person of twenty ,and a comparison or their intellect is impractical.

Can I apply the same rule as you and tdol mentioned above?; in "...that (a), and (b)", is ",and (b)" usually included in the noun clause?

If there is no comma inserted before "and", I won't get confused at all. But whenever there is a comma before "and" in such cases, I get confused quite often...