clauses

[navi tasan]

Are these sentences correct:
1-John says that, who knows all about it.
2-John says that who knows all about it.

[MikeNewYork]

Are these sentences correct:
1-John says that, who knows all about it.
2-John says that who knows all about it.

I would say "no". I don't lnow what they mean.

If it is John who knows all about it, try:

John, who knows all about it, says that.

[navi tasan]

Yes, it is John who knows all about it. At least that was what I wanted to say!
I thought one could sometimes postpone these clauses, like in
3-A man will come who will save us all.
4-Those will win who run fastest.

I think 3 and 4 are correct. I don't know about these:

5-"The man will win who runs fastest."

6-"The tall man won who had long hair."

7-"The tall man won, who had long hair."

8-"I took Jane to the cinema, who is tall and beautiful."

[MikeNewYork]

Yes, it is John who knows all about it. At least that was what I wanted to say!
I thought one could sometimes postpone these clauses, like in
3-A man will come who will save us all.
4-Those will win who run fastest.

I think 3 and 4 are correct. I don't know about these:

5-"The man will win who runs fastest."

6-"The tall man won who had long hair."

7-"The tall man won, who had long hair."

8-"I took Jane to the cinema, who is tall and beautiful."

Yes, one can do that in certain circumstances. The point is to make sure there is no other logical referent for the relative clause and that one doesn't leave the reader/listener hanging.

3 works OK because there is only an intransitive verb between the referent and the clause.

4 and 5 are OK, but the reader could start with thinking that "who run(s) fastest" is what will be won.

6 and 7 don't work at all for me.

8 is comical. It is worse because there is a noun "cinema" that tries to grab the clause.

[navi tasan]

Thanks Mike.
I think I have more or less got it.
What do you think of these three:

9-A man will come, who will save us. (I have added a comma to 3)
10-Somebody will come, who will save us.
11-Somebody did it who had the access code.

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks Mike.
I think I have more or less got it.
What do you think of these three:

9-A man will come, who will save us. (I have added a comma to 3)
10-Somebody will come, who will save us.
11-Somebody did it who had the access code.

Those three are OK. I don't think the commas help in the first two, however. A person might read that as a trailing question.

[navi tasan]

Thanks.
It is funny though, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think when you are talking about something specific, it doesn't work. Even in
"The man will win who runs fastest."
which you considered to be OK, we don't know yet who the man is. It is sort of a general rule.

This is what I gather from these examples. I have tried to come up with all the possible cases.

[MikeNewYork]

Thanks.
It is funny though, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think when you are talking about something specific, it doesn't work. Even in
"The man will win who runs fastest."
which you considered to be OK, we don't know yet who the man is. It is sort of a general rule.

This is what I gather from these examples. I have tried to come up with all the possible cases.

You may be onto something there. If you replace "the man" with "John", it doesn't work. Possibly' we will tolerate waiting for a defining clause/phrase, but once we have an identified entity, we won't. Hmmm. :wink:

[navi tasan]

The interesting thing is that you said "no" to:
6--The tall man who won had long hair.

I think that means that this is unacceptable also:
12-The man won who ran fastest.
(I don't think it sounds right myself)

According to my theory, this one should be correct:
13-A man came who had all the answers.

[MikeNewYork]

The interesting thing is that you said "no" to:
6--The tall man who won had long hair.

I think that means that this is unacceptable also:
12-The man won who ran fastest.
(I don't think it sounds right myself)

According to my theory, this one should be correct:
13-A man came who had all the answers.

I could probably be reversed on 6. I just wouldn't write it that way. :wink: