[Grammar] the present perfect

[2006]

Originally Posted by David L.

I (have) received your letter.'
Don't always try to find a difference in meaning between simple past and present perfect because there often isn't any difference.

I think this statement is misleading, 2006. It presupposes that, as in your example, our communications verbal and written consist of isolated sentences, when in fact there is a much wider context in which words are chosen and spoken.
I received your letter. Fact. It arrived. I didn't know you were going to write to me, and now I am replying.

I have received your letter.
The person may write these words in isolation, but in his choice of the present perfect, he is writing from the context and mental framework of:
"I have some very good news. As you know, we have been unable to proceed with your claim for the Vanderbilt inheritance until we had proof of your paternity. I have (now) received a letter from Somerset House with your birth certificate, and so I will immediately lodge..."

I also disagree with:
Tell me some of the good things that he did since you have known him.

Will it be fine with "did" and what will it mean? Yes it will, and the meaning is the same.


'Since' can only be used with perfect tenses :"Tell me some of the good things that he has done since you have known him."

No one said that conversations consist of isolated sentences, but when a single sentence is presented as a question or otherwise one has to evaluate the meaning of that sentence as is. Saying that a sentence must carry a certain context with it is unjustified, in my opinion.


"I (have) received your letter."
Both sentences simply mean it arrived. There is no implication of having expected the letter or not. Nor is there any implication as to what kind of news the letter contained.

I think many people will be surprised to read that "Since can only be used with perfect tenses."
You can say 'He hasn't been able to work since his accident happened.', but you can also say 'He isn't able to work since his accident happened.' (or...'Since his accident happened, he isn't able to work.')

The present tense sentences are perfectly acceptable.

[e2e4]

from bosnia and not a teacher

As he pointed out 2006 had talked according to north-american grammar.
According to BrE grammar rules David Mortimer's absolutelly right.

In addition

Usually you use past simple if you are telling a story such as

I went to a shop and bought a book.
It was written by J.J. simple past, passive voice
I read all the books he had written.
These books were interesting to me.
I enjoyed them very much. etc

You could have used present perfect here but in the first sentence only.

I've gone to a shop and bought a book. (that could be a fact)
have gone and have bought are present perfect aspects.

In all the other sentences you should have used past simple except in the third one just to distinguish that he had written the books before you read it with a reasonable time distance of course. Pointing to the time when the books were written you went further trough the past.

You couldn't say
It has been written in the second sentence for you already said the first one. So it was written (in the past). If the event happened in the past and has no any connection with the time of speaking you must use aspects which only describes pasts. (simple past, past continuous, past perfect, etc.. but not present perfect which may describe the past and the present at the same time. The present perfect aspect connects the past with the time of speaking directly or by some way, giving the direct result, for example)

Present perfect doesn't automatically mean recently.

Present perfect on it's own doesn't tell us anything about the time period. The time period is undefinite!
I've been there. (when? doesn't matter!!! what matters is that you've been there. That's all. You've told the fact. You could have been there 20 years ago or 20 minutes ago or just got back, the phrase is the same, I've been there! You could hav ebeen there for 10 minutes or 2 moths it doesn't matter again.)

I've known him for 40 years.
It means I met him 40 years ago and have been knowing him for 40 years and up to now at the time of speaking. (of course I will be knowing him in the future as well but we do not care for the future when we use present perfect. It's a bit different when the present perfect continuous form is in use)

You've just told a fact that you've known him for 40 years. (of course up to the moment of speaking)

If you want that present perfect only point to the time of speaking you must add the word just

I've just done it. (you don't know how long I have been working) The only thing I am interested in to say about is that I've just done it.)


Look at the phrase

I've got it. BrE, means, I have it, when? Now!

etc..
It isn't possible to explain all about use of the present perfect aspect in one post.

[riverkid]

{riverkid: My remarks are in Purple}

ORIGINAL EXAMPLE: Tell me some of the good things that he did since you have known him.

I (have) received your letter.'

2006 wrote: Don't always try to find a difference in meaning between simple past and present perfect because there often isn't any difference.

Originally Posted by David L.

I think this statement is misleading, 2006. It presupposes that, as in your example, our communications verbal and written consist of isolated sentences, when in fact there is a much wider context in which words are chosen and spoken.

I received your letter. Fact. It arrived. I didn't know you were going to write to me, and now I am replying.

I agree with 2006 and David in some respects; with 2006, in that there isn't a difference in meaning between the past simple and the present perfect; both describe the fact situation, "someone got/has gotten a letter".

But there is a difference in how it is being said. And here, the differences between NaE and BrE might just cover the differences between these two gentlepeople.

Either "I received your letter" or "I have received your letter" could have, as a fact situation that "I didn't know you were going to write to me, and now I am replying".

I have received your letter.

David wrote: The person may write these words in isolation, but in his choice of the present perfect, he is writing from the context and mental framework of:

"I have some very good news. As you know, we have been unable to proceed with your claim for the Vanderbilt inheritance until we had proof of your paternity. I have (now) received a letter from Somerset House with your birth certificate, and so I will immediately lodge..."

The person may also be using the present perfect out of a greater sense of politeness/formality.

================================

David writes: I also disagree with:

ORIGINAL EXAMPLE: Tell me some of the good things that he did since you have known him.

GUEST 2008 wrote: Will it be fine with "did" and what will it mean?

2006 replied: Yes it will, and the meaning is the same.

David writes:
'Since' can only be used with perfect tenses :"Tell me some of the good things that he has done since you have known him."

This is not true. 'since' can also be used with the simple past tense.

1. Tell me some of the fun things you did since you came to camp.

2. I lived in Toronto ever since I came to Canada.

3. It's like, it's like fourteen years since the favorite won the National. (CONV)

4. Is it six weeks since we saw the last one then? (CONV)

5. Since Billy's come around that's all we've been talking about. (CONV)

Numbers 1 to 4 are perfectly grammatical and really quite common in speech. {the last three, in SeaGreen, are examples from the LGSWE}

There are of course, times when the speaker feels a greater need to use the present perfect, witness above, the three examples in SeaGreen from the LGSWE.

In number 5, the speaker chooses/chose the present perfect. In numbers 3 and 4, the speakers could have chosen to use the present perfect but didn't.

[riverkid]

Originally Posted by e2e4

from bosnia and not a teacher

As he pointed out 2006 had talked according to north-american grammar.
According to BrE grammar rules David Mortimer's absolutely right.

Even for BrE, things are changing, and those changes are being wrought by exposure to NaE, largely AmE. While there most certainly is a greater likelihood for a BrE speaker to choose the present perfect in situations like this, it's not a dead cert.

In addition

Usually you use past simple if you are telling a story such as

I went to a shop and bought a book.
It was written by J.J. simple past, passive voice
I read all the books he had written.
These books were interesting to me.
I enjoyed them very much. etc

You could have used present perfect here but in the first sentence only.

I've gone to a shop and bought a book. (that could be a fact)
have gone and have bought are present perfect aspects.

In all the other sentences you should have used past simple except in the third one just to distinguish that he had written the books before you read it with a reasonable time distance of course. Pointing to the time when the books were written you went further trough the past.

It's certainly possible that the present perfect could be used in other parts of such a story, E2e4.

+++++++++++++
A: Where've you been all afternoon, B?

B: I've been to a shop and I bought a book. It was written by J.J. (simple past, passive voice)
I've read all the books he has written.
These books have been of great interest to me.
I've enjoyed them very much.
+++++++++++++++++


You couldn't say

It has been written in the second sentence for you already said the first one. So it was written (in the past).

If the event happened in the past and has no any connection with the time of speaking you must use aspects which only describes pasts.

This is obviously the most confusing aspect of the present perfect, the present perfect of currentness/importance/hot news.

The only explanation for two examples where it seems that in both, the speaker could have chosen [to some ESLs minds, should have chosen] the present perfect, is that, ESPECIALLY in NaE, it is a matter of speaker choice.

In a situation where a speaker wins $50 million, which is more likely;

A. I won $50 million.

OR

B: I've won $50 million.

Probably, B, but that doesn't mean that it's absolutely necessary or "correct". There are many reasons that a speaker could want to downplay such an event. It is again, SPEAKER CHOICE. [not yelling]



etc..
It isn't possible to explain all about use of the present perfect aspect in one post.

That's oh so true, E2e4.

[GUEST2008]

HI

What if I said:

A: Where've you been all afternoon, B?

B: I've been to a shop and I've bought a book. It has been written by J.J.

Would it really be incorrect?

[e2e4]

From Bosnia I see the matter different. My knowledge is poor but my way is to say my opinion.

[/quote] riverkid
1. Tell me some of the fun things you did (have done) since you came to camp. for me did is wrong here. sorry. with since you came you have pointed to the exact past! From that exact time and to now you have done something.

2. I lived (have lived) in Toronto ever (no need for the word ever if have lived is used) since I came to Canada.

3. It's like, it's like fourteen years since the favorite won the National. won is correct here because the past has been stated clearly, definite. fourteen years! They won before the fourteen years! how to use present perfect then?

4. Is it six weeks since we saw the last one then? saw is correct here because you have pointed to the past when it happened! The time is definite, six weeks, exactly! I wonder is it six weeks after I saw it.

5. Since Billy's come (came) around (round) that's all we've been talking about. (you've used continuous form for you decided to say how you have been taking your time)
around is American English and round is British English.

Numbers 1 to 4 are perfectly grammatical and really quite common in speech. {the last three, in SeaGreen, are examples from the LGSWE}
As I already said it could be the United States English.

There are of course, times when the speaker feels a greater need to use the present perfect, witness above, the three examples in SeaGreen from the LGSWE.

In number 5, the speaker chooses/chose the present perfect. In numbers 3 and 4, the speakers could have chosen to use the present perfect but didn't.
[/quote]

The present perfect aspect is very simple to make but it is very hard for many people (me too) to use it properly.

[e2e4]

Originally Posted by GUEST2008

HI

What if I've said:

A: Where've you been all the afternoon, B? this one is ok for me if is it still the afternoon and not neither evening nor night nor tommorow morning.
In such a case it's evening already, I think,you must have said this way

Where you were all the afternoon? (because the afternoon is past to the evening)
The best would be to say
Where have you been?
We do not use the present perfect aspect with adverbs of time but much. ( since, recently,..)

B: I've been to a shop and I've bought a book. It has been written by J.J.

I went to a shop and bought a book. The book was written by J.J.

Anyway if I count things, I did in the past, but one after another, I use the simple past and not present perfect.

I was at a shop where I had bought a book would have different meaning. It means I was at a shop in which I had bought a book a time ago, actually not this time when I was at the shop.

Would it really be incorrect?

You had to have gone to the shop first and than bought a book.
Simple past.

[e2e4]

I went to a shop and bought a book there.

It was written by J.J.

I (had) read all the books he had written. (it means I read all the books he had written but not this new one)

These books had been (were) of great interest to me. (riverkid, thanks for the of great interest)

I had been enjoying them very much.

Here and now I am mostly interested to know is it possible to use were instead of had been in the fourth sentence and in the context of the story.

[GUEST2008]

Originally Posted by e2e4

I went to a shop and bought a book there.

It was written by J.J.

I (had) read all the books he had written. (it means I read all the books he had written but not this new one)

These books had been (were) of great interest to me. (riverkid, thanks for the of great interest)

I had been enjoying them very much.

Here and now I am mostly interested to know is it possible to use were instead of had been in the fourth sentence and in the context of the story.

And I'm curious if it's really necessary to use the past perfect tense in the last example, i.e., I had been enjoying.......

[Clark]

I decided to change the sentence a little.

Originally Posted by GUEST2008

HI

What if I said:

A: Where've you been all afternoon, B?

B: I've been (1) to a bookshop where I bought (2) a book by J.J.

Would it really be incorrect?

(1) The present perfect is used to indicate an accomplished action that is viewed from the moment of speaking as part of the present situation. (= as a result of this visit I have something to tell you/ show you)
(2) The past simple is used to indicate an action that took place at a definite past moment. The time of the action is given indirectly, through the mention of the place of the action.(the bookshop)