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03-Jul-2009, 20:22
| | Newbie | | Join Date: Jun 2009 Country: Israel
Posts: 16
Current Location: Holand First Language: Arabic Member Type: Student or Learner | |  What's the difference here?
What's the difference between these sentences
1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.
Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes |
03-Jul-2009, 20:49
| | Newbie | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Country: Canada
Posts: 23
Current Location: USA First Language: English Member Type: Academic | | Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marybeth  What's the difference between these sentences
1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.
Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes | Hi Marybeth,
Yes, sentence 1 is wrong, and yes you can use sentence 2 to speak of people in the past.
I am not an English teacher but would be interested in a 'nuts & bolts' kind of explanation exactly why have had is incorrect here. |
04-Jul-2009, 15:22
|  | Key Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Country: Poland
Posts: 2,337
Current Location: Jelenia Gora, Poland First Language: Polish Member Type: Other | | Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmuench Hi Marybeth,
Yes, sentence 1 is wrong, and yes you can use sentence 2 to speak of people in the past.
I am not an English teacher but would be interested in a 'nuts & bolts' kind of explanation exactly why have had is incorrect here. | If you want to use a modal verb to refer to past time, the only correct way to do so is through the use of the following structure: modal verb + perfect infinitive (=have + past participle) must have forgotten her birthday (active voice) must have been built in the tenth century (passive voice) must have had his car repaired (causative have) |
04-Jul-2009, 17:39
| | Newbie | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Country: Canada
Posts: 23
Current Location: USA First Language: English Member Type: Academic | | Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by engee30 If you want to use a modal verb to refer to past time, the only correct way to do so is through the use of the following structure:
modal verb + perfect infinitive (=have + past participle)
must have forgotten her birthday (active voice)
must have been built in the tenth century (passive voice)
must have had his car repaired (causative have) | Engee30, Thanks for the break-down. So, if 'have' is a causative verb here, what's the grammatical term for have in: "I have cookies"? |
04-Jul-2009, 17:44
| | Key Member | | Join Date: Apr 2006 Country: Poland
Posts: 2,337
Current Location: Jelenia Gora, Poland First Language: Polish Member Type: Other | | Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmuench Engee30, Thanks for the break-down. So, if 'have' is a causative verb here, what's the grammatical term for have in: "I have cookies"? | Uhm, the causative have is present only in my last example.
As for your sentence, it's just the first person singular form of the verb have in the active. |
04-Jul-2009, 19:55
| | Newbie | | Join Date: Jul 2009 Country: Canada
Posts: 23
Current Location: USA First Language: English Member Type: Academic | | Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by engee30 Uhm, the causative have is present only in my last example.
As for your sentence, it's just the first person singular form of the verb have in the active. | Hahaha, yes, you can clearly see grammar is not my forte!
Thanks for the lessons engee.
W. |
05-Jul-2009, 10:09
| | Key Member | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Country: India
Posts: 1,648
Current Location: Bhubaneswar First Language: Oriya Member Type: English Teacher | |  Re: What's the difference here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marybeth What's the difference between these sentences
1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.
Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes | Sentence 1 is wrong because you can not have two helping verbs (have & had)to construct a sentence in the present/past perfect tense. You can either use have or had with said, the past participle form of the main verb ‘say’ Instead of the main verb, you can say: They must have had a bad time during the trip. Or You must have had many major problems while working on this project.
Last edited by sarat_106; 06-Jul-2009 at 00:29.
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05-Jul-2009, 10:15
| | VIP Member | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Country: UK
Posts: 5,427
Current Location: UK First Language: British English Member Type: Other | | Re: What's the difference here?
sarat_106: so succinct!  | |
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