[Grammar] What's the difference here?

[Marybeth]

What's the difference between these sentences

1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.

Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes

[wmuench]

Originally Posted by Marybeth

What's the difference between these sentences

1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.

Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes

Hi Marybeth,

Yes, sentence 1 is wrong, and yes you can use sentence 2 to speak of people in the past.

I am not an English teacher but would be interested in a 'nuts & bolts' kind of explanation exactly why have had is incorrect here.

[engee30]

Originally Posted by wmuench

Hi Marybeth,

Yes, sentence 1 is wrong, and yes you can use sentence 2 to speak of people in the past.

I am not an English teacher but would be interested in a 'nuts & bolts' kind of explanation exactly why have had is incorrect here.

If you want to use a modal verb to refer to past time, the only correct way to do so is through the use of the following structure:
modal verb + perfect infinitive (=have + past participle)

must have forgotten her birthday (active voice)
must have been built in the tenth century (passive voice)
must have had his car repaired (causative have)

[wmuench]

Originally Posted by engee30

If you want to use a modal verb to refer to past time, the only correct way to do so is through the use of the following structure:
modal verb + perfect infinitive (=have + past participle)

must have forgotten her birthday (active voice)
must have been built in the tenth century (passive voice)
must have had his car repaired (causative have)

Engee30, Thanks for the break-down. So, if 'have' is a causative verb here, what's the grammatical term for have in: "I have cookies"?

[engee30]

Originally Posted by wmuench

Engee30, Thanks for the break-down. So, if 'have' is a causative verb here, what's the grammatical term for have in: "I have cookies"?

Uhm, the causative have is present only in my last example.
As for your sentence, it's just the first person singular form of the verb have in the active.

[wmuench]

Originally Posted by engee30

Uhm, the causative have is present only in my last example.
As for your sentence, it's just the first person singular form of the verb have in the active.

Hahaha, yes, you can clearly see grammar is not my forte!
Thanks for the lessons engee.

W.

[sarat_106]

Originally Posted by Marybeth

What's the difference between these sentences

1-They must have had said that.
2-They must have said that.

Is sentence 1 wrong?
Can I used the second sentence if I want to talk about ancient people?
I guess yes

Sentence 1 is wrong because you can not have two helping verbs (have & had)to construct a sentence in the present/past perfect tense. You can either use have or had with said, the past participle form of the main verb ‘say’ Instead of the main verb, you can say:
They must have had a bad time during the trip.
Or
You must have had many major problems while working on this project.

[David L.]

sarat_106: so succinct!