(just) as much ... as ... Prescriptive or Descriptive?

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by navi tasan

Thanks X mode,
I agree that the sentence needs a comma. And there is no doubt that it can have the meaning you attribute to it. But can't it also mean: It was one and also the other.

He played the guitar, as did I. (and I did as well)
He played the guitar, as I played the piano. (two meanings: at the same time and also)
He was rude to you, as he was to me.
He was violent, as he was rude.

Yes, those meanings are possible. I don't think those meanings were intended, however, in the sentence we were first discussing.

[Steven D]

He played the guitar, as I played the piano. (two meanings: at the same time and also)

There's another possible meaning there. It could mean "because". Both of them play the guitar and the piano. One played the piano because the other one played the guitar. The context determines the meaning. There are always possibilities.

[navi tasan]

Thanks X Mode,
You are quite right. Since I played the piano, he played the guitar.

[Steven D]

If we are talking about gradable and ungradable adjectives, I think this is something to consider.


: HCD, it's easier to learn English by being exposed to large amounts of it than to learn it from grammar books that assign words to categories that have names. I grew up speaking English. I went to school in the US. I had never heard of "gradable" and "nongradable" before.

: It seems that a gradable adjective is one that refers to some quality that there can be more or less of. "Pretty"--one painting can be prettier than another. You shouldn't have to memorize lists of adjectives. What matters is the meaning of the word. Just translate the English adjective into your own language and decide whether it means something that can be quantified.



http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_b...ages/1036.html

Originally Posted by X Mode

And what do you suppose causes this? How do they arrive at that conclusion?

Prescriptivism.

[MrPedantic]

1. This is as much unnecessary as it is undesirable.
2. This is as unnecessary as it is undesirable.

I would say that since the construction 'as X as it is Y' already implies 'as much X as it is Y', the 'much' is redundant.

Moreover, we are not literally comparing two qualities in terms of degree or quantity: no one who uses #2, for instance, is comparing 'this' quantity of unnecessariness with 'that' quantity of undesirability. The comparison is rhetorical: a comparative figure of speech is used to convey a non-comparative message. It really means little more than:

2a. This is unnecessary; furthermore, it is undesirable.

(Or rather, vice versa.)

But cf. this construction:

3. You are as much to blame as I am.

Here, there is a sense of real comparison: we use it in situations where we really do want to apportion blame equally between two parties. (Or rather, to emphasise that party B is by no means blame-free.)

My impression is that the pattern of #3 has spilt over into #2, and produced #1.

That said, 'emphasis' may also be a legitimate explanation, in some contexts, e.g.

A: "This is as unnecessary as it is undesirable."
B: "Oh, surely not. Undesirable, yes, very much so; but unnecessary? In my view, it is much less unnecessary than it is undesirable."
A: "I strongly disagree. In my opinion, it is as much unnecessary as undesirable. More so, in fact."

Though perhaps such contexts are rare.

MrP

From the British National Corpus.

All this is very necessary preparation for the major exercises planned for later.

Good communication skills, courtesy and commitment were extremely necessary for the job.

I wonder whether all these panic measures are entirely necessary.

Acceptance of things is so necessary, it leaves one free.

[Steven D]

Originally Posted by M56

Prescriptivism.

I would call it, maybe, lack of confidence in one's own language. In other words, prescriptivism causes people to learn their first language - again - in some cases. It's true that some speakers deviate far from the limitations of that which is standard and are not aware of it, but that's something else.

- know what I mean?

[MrPedantic]

Originally Posted by M56

From the British National Corpus.

All this is very necessary preparation for the major exercises planned for later.

Good communication skills, courtesy and commitment were extremely necessary for the job.

I wonder whether all these panic measures are entirely necessary.

Acceptance of things is so necessary, it leaves one free.

I would say the adverbs here have various functions, none of which are quantifiable in literal terms. To my ears, they express:
1. emphasis
2. earnestness
3. irony
4. faintly plaintive buttonholing

If we excise the adverb in each case, we're left with a drier statement.

The original construction seems to me to be a different case: there, we are dealing with the relationship of two qualities, rather than the degree of one.

Does your nickname have an astronomical connection, M56? (If it's not impolite to ask.)

MrP

Originally Posted by MrPedantic

I would say the adverbs here have various functions, none of which are quantifiable in literal terms. To my ears, they express:
1. emphasis
2. earnestness
3. irony
4. faintly plaintive buttonholing

If we excise the adverb in each case, we're left with a drier statement.

The original construction seems to me to be a different case: there, we are dealing with the relationship of two qualities, rather than the degree of one.

Does your nickname have an astronomical connection, M56? (If it's not impolite to ask.)

MrP

No. it's a motorway in NW England.