mixed tenses

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ostap77

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"Sometimes a past simple tense is used with "if" where a past perfect would be normal."

1)"If I had the the money I would have been surfing in New Zealand."

OR

2)"If I knew you were coming I would have baked a cake."
 
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5jj

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1)"If I had the the money I would have been surfing in New Zealand."

OR

2)"If I knew you were coming I would have baked a cake."
#1 is just about possible. The speaker may be suggesting that he is permanently without money.
#2, IMO, requires if I had known.
 

ostap77

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#1 is just about possible. The speaker may be suggesting that he is permanently without money.
#2, IMO, requires if I had known.

These examples are from the grammar text-book Michael Swan "Practical English Usage"

3)"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."

OR

4)"If I didn't have my walking boots on I think I would have really hurt my foot."

In both of these the pas perfect would be OK.
 
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riquecohen

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"If I Knew You Were Coming I"d Have Baked a Cake." Certainly incorrect, but this was the title of American singer Georgia Gibbs's first big hit in the early '50's. Perhaps you can find it on YouTube.
 

bhaisahab

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These examples are from the grammar text-book Michael Swan "Practical English Usage"

3)"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."

OR

4)"If I didn't have my walking boots on I think I would have really hurt my foot."

In both of these the pas perfect would be OK.
I have to say that I disagree with the above, IMO #3 should be "If I had had the money..."
 

5jj

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I agree with bhaisahab. I'd have a past perfect in #4, too.
 

bhaisahab

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I agree with bhaisahab. I'd have a past perfect in #4, too.
I was going to include #4 and then I realised that a case could be made for it. If you and I were walking in the mountains and I stubbed my foot against a rock, I might say "If I didn't have my walking boots on, I think I would have really hurt my foot".
 
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crazYgeeK

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I have to say that I disagree with the above, IMO #3 should be "If I had had the money..."

Did you mean the author Michael Swan was wrong in his grammar textbook ?
I really don't understand why it can't be correct ?
As far as I know the grammatical structure using in that sentence is fine, I was taught three types of IF statement and don't know the exceptions in making sentences following these structures.
Could you please make it clear ?
Thank you so much !
 

bhaisahab

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Did you mean the author Michael Swan was wrong in his grammar textbook ?
I really don't understand why it can't be correct ?
As far as I know the grammatical structure using in that sentence is fine, I was taught three types of IF statement and don't know the exceptions in making sentences following these structures.
Could you please make it clear ?
Thank you so much !
3)"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."
"If I had the money, I would buy you one" would be correct. "If I had the money (now), I would buy you one" (now). "If I had the money (present tense, now), I would have bought you one" (past, then) This is not logical. However, "If I had had the money (past, then), I would have bought you one" (past, then) is perfectly logical.
 

ostap77

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3)"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."
"If I had the money, I would buy you one" would be correct. "If I had the money (now), I would buy you one" (now). "If I had the money (present tense, now), I would have bought you one" (past, then) This is not logical. However, "If I had had the money (past, then), I would have bought you one" (past, then) is perfectly logical.

The above mentioned book would be incorrect?
 

e2e4

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/A learner/

"If I Knew You Were Coming I"d Have Baked a Cake." Certainly incorrect, but this was the title of American singer Georgia Gibbs's first big hit in the early '50's. Perhaps you can find it on YouTube.

Did you mean the author Michael Swan was wrong in his grammar textbook ?
I really don't understand why it can't be correct ?

As far as I know the grammatical structure using in that sentence is fine, I was taught three types of IF statement and don't know the exceptions in making sentences following these structures.
Could you please make it clear ?
Thank you so much !

"If I Knew You Were Coming I"d Have Baked a Cake." I agree to teacher riquecohen that this is wrong.

I'll try to explain it my way.

If I knew at the same time during which you were coming that you were coming how could I bake a cake?
In what time?

Got it?

If I had known that you were coming I would have baked a cake. (Prethee correct)

Now, in the past, there was a time distance between the time at which I had known that you would come and your coming so that it had been possible for me to bake a cake.

This is thinking of a learner. What to do!
 
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ostap77

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/A learner/





"If I Knew You Were Coming I"d Have Baked a Cake." I agree to teacher riquecohen that this is wrong.

I'll try to explain it my way.

If I knew at the same time as you were coming that you were coming how could I bake a cake?
In what time?

Got it?

If I had known that you were coming I would bake a cake. (Prethee correct)

Now there is a time distance between the time in which I had known that you would come and your coming so that it is possible for me to bake a cake.

This is thinking of a learner. What to do!

I just presented an extract from the text-book.

These examples are from the grammar text-book Michael Swan "Practical English Usage" p. 240 third edition. Read it.

"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."

OR

"If I didn't have my walking boots on I think I would have really hurt my foot."
 

ostap77

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Did you mean the author Michael Swan was wrong in his grammar textbook ?
I really don't understand why it can't be correct ?
As far as I know the grammatical structure using in that sentence is fine, I was taught three types of IF statement and don't know the exceptions in making sentences following these structures.
Could you please make it clear ?
Thank you so much !

Yes. That's the text-book I 've been reading a lot. I was just wondering if the grammar is so different and is dependant on a book you're reading?
 

5jj

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I've just tracked down the Swan examples. He introduces them with the words, "Sometimes a simple past is used with if where a past perfect would be normal. This is more common in American English."

Unfortunately, he does not say how (un)common it is in Br E.

Until today I would have said that the money example was incorrect/unacceptable. It is just about possible (as I explained in post #2), but only without the words 'with me.'

I will now have to to listen more carefully to what native speakers say. It is, of course, not impossible that Swan is wrong. However, he is normally so sound that I may have overlooked similar examples in real life, by believing that nobody would utter them. What is fairly certain is that many native speakers, including experienced teachers (and probably examiners; be warned!) do not think that examples such as we have been discussing are normal.
 

e2e4

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I just presented an extract from the text-book.

These examples are from the grammar text-book Michael Swan "Practical English Usage" p. 240 third edition. Read it.

"If I had the money with me I would have bought you one."

OR

"If I didn't have my walking boots on I think I would have really hurt my foot."
These two are correct. (For me of course. Who I am to say this!)

How could have I bought you anything if the money wasn't with me?

Me, you, money and buying; all together at the same time. (In the past)

On the other hand look at this example

If this house had been bought by my grand grandfather, my father, for sure, would have left it to me a few years ago when he passed away.
It is prethee possible that here was a certain time distance between the time when my grand grandfather had lived and the time when my father died.

But I also must say that this way of speaking would be more difficult for grammatically correct speaking of the language. It is much easier to use so called third conditional for all unfulfilled events in the past.
 
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5jj

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Me, you, money and buying; all together at the same time. (In the past)
The point is that they are not all together in the normal understanding of the words, as bhaisahab pointed out in post #9
 
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