[Grammar] Questions on Grammar and Punctuation!!!

Mary Bright · Mar 24, 2011

I've got questions on the English grammar and punctuation, the comma especially. Will you tell me, please:
1) How to use a comma with adverbs which are always at the beginning of a sentence? E.g.:
Today these buildings present a great historical and cultural value.
In 1902 the buildings were reconstructed and united into one.
Later on it was renamed into George's House.

Do I need to use a comma after today, 1902, later on, since , etc.?

2) How to use a comma correctly with participles II postposed? E.g.:
The buildings situated there belong to the postwar period
There was also a square situated at the crossing of two streets.
There used to be a convent built in 1813.
Is there any rule to explain this?

3) Can I express possession this way:
These houses were built according to the architect's Ben Johnson project.

4) If a proper noun has a descriptive attribute, which article shall I use? E.g.:
The square boarders (the, an, -) old Central Public Graden on the south.

5) If I have a proper name such as 'Old Town', shall I capitalize it when using as just 'Town', without 'Old'? E.g.:
This is Old Town. The Town is famous for its history.

6) Is it all right to say 'It's (the building) shaped like a huge liner', 'The square is spreading back of it (park)'.

7) What is the correct variant for writing proper names which are naturally common? E.g.
The October cinema
Do you italicize it, or quote, or what?

There are lots of questions. Hope, not too many, though. Really need your assistance and thanks a lot in advance.

bhaisahab · Mar 24, 2011

"1) How to use a comma with adverbs which are always at the beginning of a sentence? E.g.:
Today these buildings present a great historical and cultural value.
In 1902 the buildings were reconstructed and united into one.
Later on it was renamed into George's House."
Too many questions in one post, Mary. In answer to this one; I would use a comma after all three.

5jj · Mar 24, 2011

The answer to #3:

Mary Bright said:
Can I express possession this way:
These houses were built according to the architect's Ben Johnson project.

No.......These houses were built according to the architect Ben Johnson's project.

Note also:

He was one of Diana, Princess of Wales's, oldest friends.
The King of France's most trusted admirer....

You will also hear such utterances as:.....The chap I used to share a room with's girlfriend ...

It is much better to rephrase utterances such as the last (The girlfriend of the chap I used to live with.... ) but they pass unnoticed in informal conversation, so strong is the feeling we have that the 's belongs with the last word of the 'possessor' noun phrase.

Bide · Mar 25, 2011

I wouldn't say: "These houses were built according to the architect's Ben Johnson project." was necessarily wrong. Assume an architect, Bob Builder, who has a house building specification project named after one Mr Ben Johnson. In such a context the original sentence is quite correct.

These houses were built according to Bob Builder's Ben Johnson project.

You can leave out the bits in ( ).

The buildings (which are) situated there belong to the postwar period. Here you have a reduced relative clause. 'situated there' is a post-nomial descriptive attribute here, an adjective. In my opinion no comma is needed or warranted. If the relative clause was not reduced, I still wouldn't use commas. It wouldn't be good English to write: 'The situated there buildings'. It would be ok like that in Chinese.

The buildings can't 'situate'. They can be situated.
There was also a square (which was) situated at the crossing of two streets. Here you have an anonymous passive: instead of active: 'The architect situated the square at the crossroads.' or passive: 'The square was situated at the crossroads by the architect.' the person who did the 'situating' is unknown or irrelevant, so we have the existential passive: 'There was also a square situated at the crossroads.' (Cf 'Situated at the crossroads was a square.')

There is of course the reflexive: 'The building situates itself on the corner of Grove Street and Windy Alley.' Even so, I don't think the building chooses where it puts itself! It is not the actor or agent controlling its own position.

This next sentence is missing something. I added a prepositional adverbial: 'on this corner'
There used to be a convent, (which was) built in 1813, on this corner. Here you have a reduced relative clause. I would recommend using commas.

5jj · Mar 25, 2011

Bide said:
I wouldn't say: "These houses were built according to the architect's Ben Johnson project." was necessarily wrong. Assume an architect, Bob Builder, who has a house building specification project named after one Mr Ben Johnson. In such a context the original sentence is quite correct.

These houses were built according to Bob Builder's Ben Johnson project.

Very true. I hadn't thought of that.

Mary Bright · Mar 25, 2011

bhaisahab said:
Too many questions in one post, Mary. In answer to this one; I would use a comma after all three.

I'm sorry. Had such a feeling. Thank you for answering this question.

Rover_KE · Mar 25, 2011

4) If a proper noun has a descriptive attribute, which article shall I use? E.g.:
The square boarders (the, an, -) old Central Public Garden on the south.

As it's a proper noun, use the.

This is getting confusing, Mary. We're having to search through to see which questions haven't been addressed yet.

Please post your unanswered questions separately, with meaningful titles like This is Old Town and The October cinema.

Rover

Mary Bright · Mar 25, 2011

fivejedjon said:
The answer to #3:No.......These houses were built according to the architect Ben Johnson's project.

Note also:

He was one of Diana, Princess of Wales's, oldest friends.
The King of France's most trusted admirer....

You will also hear such utterances as:.....The chap I used to share a room with's girlfriend ...

It is much better to rephrase utterances such as the last (The girlfriend of the chap I used to live with.... ) but they pass unnoticed in informal conversation, so strong is the feeling we have that the 's belongs with the last word of the 'possessor' noun phrase.

Thanks a lot. But what about this case: King John II? Where am I to make a possession?

Barb_D · Mar 25, 2011

Mary Bright said:
Thanks a lot. But what about this case: King John II? Where am I to make a possession?

You could say King John II's wife.

You can also rewrite: The wife of King John II.

Rover_KE · Mar 25, 2011

Mary Bright said:
Thanks a lot. But what about this case: King John II? Where am I to make a possession?

'He was King John II's most trusted courtier.'

Rover

Mary Bright · Mar 25, 2011

Tnank you, Bide. Could you just clarify some points for me, please?

1) Here you say,

Bide said:
These houses were built according to Bob Builder's Ben Johnson project.

You can leave out the bits in ( ).

The buildings (which are) situated there belong to the postwar period. Here you have a reduced relative clause. 'situated there' is a post-nomial descriptive attribute here, an adjective. In my opinion no comma is needed or warranted. If the relative clause was not reduced, I still wouldn't use commas

Then you say,

Bide said:
This next sentence is missing something. I added a prepositional adverbial: 'on this corner'
There used to be a convent, (which was) built in 1813, on this corner. Here you have a reduced relative clause. I would recommend using commas.

There are two relative clauses in these sentences, according to your words, but still, in the first case you recommend using commas and in the second one you don't. What's the difference?

Mary Bright · Mar 25, 2011

Rover_KE said:
As it's a proper noun, use the.

This is getting confusing, Mary. We're having to search through to see which questions haven't been addressed yet.

Please post your unanswered questions separately, with meaningful titles like This is Old Town and The October cinema.

Rover

Thanks. That's what I'm going to do.

Mary Bright · Mar 25, 2011

Bide said:
This next sentence is missing something. I added a prepositional adverbial: 'on this corner'
There used to be a convent, (which was) built in 1813, on this corner. Here you have a reduced relative clause. I would recommend using commas.

Do you mean this marked out construction to be sort of introductory, as there is/there are, and an indicitation of time is therefore needed? And if I said something like, 'In this street used to be a convent built in 1813', would it be all right?

5jj · Mar 25, 2011

Barb_D said:
You could say King John II's wife.

We'd say that as, 'King John the Second's wife'.

Bide · Mar 28, 2011

As your original question was about commas, I would recommend you read the work of R L Trask, late Professor of Linguistics of the University of Sussex. He remains unsurpassed in clarity, conciseness and precision. His simple 'Penguin Guide to Punctuation' will, I'm sure, answer all of your questions on the subject..

My clarity, conciseness and precision are a bit dodgy!! (Especially at this time of night)

I'll get back to you on the other stuff.

Bide · Mar 29, 2011

"There are two relative clauses in these sentences, according to your words, but still, in the first case you recommend using commas and in the second one you don't. What's the difference?"

The difference is a difference in meaning which stems from the interpretation of 'which are situated there' as a restrictive relative clause. To quote Prof. Trask: "A restrictive relative clause is required to identify what is being talked about, and never receives bracketing commas. A non-restrictive relative clause is not required for identification, but only adds further information, and it always receives bracketing commas."

You can quite correctly argue, 'The buildings belong to the postwar period.' is a good sentence, and so 'situated there' is not a restrictive relative clause. However, you are now talking about all (the) buildings, not a specific set of buildings identified as 'situated there'. The sentence now has a different subject.

There used to be a convent, (which was) built in 1813, on this corner. There probably weren't too many convents built 'on this corner' 'in 1813', 'built in 1813' is not a unique identifier, not essential, so you should use bracketing commas around the non-restrictive relative clause.

Mary Bright · Mar 29, 2011

I see that now. Appreciate your help, Bide. Actually, I was told about restrictive and non-restrictive relative clauses at the University, but have quite forgotten about it to this moment. The clarity came when you named them.

The name of the book you recommended seems pretty familiar... Would be interesting to read it. If I find the book, of course.

[Grammar] Questions on Grammar and Punctuation!!!

Mary Bright

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