[Grammar] Is the present still "perfect" even when people have grown old?

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Hucky

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Hiya,

Here is a borderline case for the pundits among the native speakers. Let´s suppose we have just visited the graduation ceremony of a university. Graduates from different faculties / departments unknown to each other meet on the campus enquiring about their respective subjects. Having finished studies successfully and graduated not so long ago, holding their certificates right in their hands, they could ask one another:

"What (subject) have you studied?" (present perfect)

Let´s suppose one more time that after some 30 years they meet again at a reunion of former students on the same campus. Of course, not realizing or remembering each other any more they want to enquire about their former subjects once more. They could ask:

"What did you study 30 years ago / when you were a student here?" (past simple)

Because of the time reference to the past the past simple is compulsory in this case, and for the same reason the present perfect is ruled out. But what about the same question without time reference? Well, everybody knows that their studies are long ago, thus implicitly referring to the past. Could they yet ask each other this way:

"What (subject) have you studied?" (present perfect),

without any time reference to the past, just willing to learn about the very fact? The reference to a present state of affairs as necessary for the use of the present perfect would be given as it is still true and remains true that they are graduates of a certain faculty / department.

Hucky
 

Tdol

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Given that thirty years has elapsed, that you know they were once students there and have finished, I think it's stretching things to use the present perfect. I would simply ask What did you study? without any need for a time reference- the context of the meeting provides it all. Even outside the context of a reunion like that, I would still use the past tense if asking an older person about their studies.

Also, your first example with the recent graduates and their certificates would also be past tense to me.
 

Hucky

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Best thanks to you, Tdol!
I see your point. Yet, to be on the safe side, may I come back to it? In other words, in your capacity as a fresh graduate, having finished studies just recently, you would use the past simple. Thus, you regard your studies as a past event. But what about this case: A student says:
I have just done my homework. (Here it is.)
The doing itself is also finished and, strictly speaking, belongs to the past. But why can you use the present perfect here?
And there is something else that puzzles me. If I dare repeat a former example and a new one from the same author:
1) “Shakespeare has described the satisfaction of a tyrannous lust of something …” (bold italics added)
2) "I have said that it is not primarily ..." (referring to a thought expressed on a previous page / bold italics added)

Well, in either case the actions obviously belong to the past, implying no topical, current link with the present. I really wonder why the author used the present perfect here. Any idea?

Hucky
 

5jj

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A student says: I have just done my homework. (Here it is.)
The doing itself is also finished and, strictly speaking, belongs to the past. But why can you use the present perfect here?
The speaker has chosen to view the situation from the perspective of the present - the homework is in a finished state.

And there is something else that puzzles me. If I dare repeat a former example and a new one from the same author:
1) “Shakespeare has described the satisfaction of a tyrannous lust of something …” (bold italics added)
The speaker has chosen to chosen to see Shakespeare as still living (through the continuing popularity/influence of his works).

2) "I have said that it is not primarily ..." (referring to a thought expressed on a previous page / bold italics added)The speaker has chosen to imply that the words, spoken or written in the past, are still valid now.
The speaker can (often subconsciously) express his/her view of the situation by selecting an appropriate tense/aspect. Grammar and course books often seem to state, or at least imply, that only one form is appropriate in each case. One form may well be more likely, but there is often a choice.
 

Hucky

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Dear fivejedjon,
I reckon that´s exactly the dilemma: grammar books have to give rules, but reality in general (and the linguistic reality in particular) cannot always be covered by the rules - which does not make the rules worthless since by definition there is always an exception to the rule. I have long noticed that the reality of English (as of any other language) is much more complex than the attempts made by grammarians to describe it. As I know the rules I keep asking native speakers about the phenomena in case the rules do not correspond with a reliable source as a renowned author (about the kind of stuff hardly be found in any grammar book).

Coming quickly back to your remarks as to the aspects of an action, wouldn´t that apply to the first and third example sentences given in my original message? So why not asking by means of the present perfect, even if it is less probable or common? What if I wanted to emphasize the present effects of the past actions here? Would it sound unnatural to the ears of a native speaker?

Hucky
 

5jj

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Coming quickly back to your remarks as to the aspects of an action, wouldn´t that apply to the first and third example sentences given in my original message? So why not asking by means of the present perfect, even if it is less probable or common? What if I wanted to emphasize the present effects of the past actions here? Would it sound unnatural to the ears of a native speaker?
Pretty well anything is possible, though the use of the present perfect in your situations is unlikely.

I was at a 40-year reunion a couple of years ago. If anybody had asked me, "What have you studied?" it would have sounded very strange. Even at the graduation ceremony forty years earlier, the question would not have sounded natural. Graduation ceremonies are held after the course of studies has ended. The studies are past.
 

Tdol

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When you hand your homework in, you have completed your part, but it still has to be graded and handed back for you to look at and see how you did, so in that sense, it's different from graduating and getting your certificate, at which stage, your course is over in every sense.
 

Hucky

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Dear fivejedjon and Tdol,

It keeps dawning upon me! Your replies are the stuff not to be found in any grammar book - what makes them so valuable! All you can do as a learner (in a foreign language you never stop being one) is to internalize the rules and to try to apply them to the corresponding situations. Yet, as you will never gain an immediate access to the language as a non-native speaker you can never foretell the way it sounds to a native speaker. It is hard - if not impossible - to establish rules for what sounds natural and why it does and what does not and why not.

With best thanks and greetings

Hucky
 
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Tdol

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Rules are convenient tools, but they need constant refining. ;-)
 

5jj

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Rules are convenient tools, but they need constant refining. ;-)
And what finer refiners could you find than UE members?
 

5jj

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It keeps dawning upon me! Your replies are the stuff not to be found in any grammar book - what makes them so valuable!
The downside is that we are likely to correct even a friendly letter:roll:. So, thanks for your message:-D, but:

1. If something dawns on you, you begin to realise it for the first time, so things don't normally 'keep dawning' on you. The dawning can be slow; you could have said: It has been slowly dawning on me.

2. What makes your replies so valuable is that they...
Your replies are [...] grammar book - which makes them so valuable!
Your replies are [...] grammar book - which is what makes them so valuable!

Best wishes.
 

Hucky

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Dear Tdol and fivejedjon,

In spite of constant refining, the rules will lag behind. But we are trying hard to fill the gap. My humble self - by way of making your head spin, you, the UE members (UE members may stand for you excellent members - I reckon), the fine refiners - by putting the record straight. Off we go! Let´s tackle the challenge!

Your co-tackler

Hucky
 

Hucky

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Dear fivejedjon,

When I wrote my lines to you last night, I didn´t realize that there had already been a message from you on the second page. It´s not just that I´m sorry for not having thanked you for it, but it struck me with surprise. Everything comes to him who waits. To be frank, I´ve been wanting to ask you - if you please - to correct mistakes having slippped in my mails. It´s just that we learn by mistakes. If there is no competent native speaker around who makes you aware of what is wrong or sounds awkward, we will keep the mistakes in mind, not even getting aware of them. The reason why I refrained from doing so was just that I was afraid it could be (mis-)understood as being impertinent. So if it doesn´t turn out to be a life time´s work, you are welcome to give me linguistic pieces of advice, nay, you would do me a favour. But only if you feel like it. Of course, I also welcome and even encourage all the other native speakers to do so. Thus, correcting me is anything but a downside - as you put it -, contrary, I would appreciate it very much. You may take it from me! We live and learn!

Looking forward to receiving tips to conquer ignorance, I remain for the time being with best thanks in advance.

Hucky
 

5jj

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To be frank The use of 'to be frank' here is not entirely natural. We tend to use that if we are about to say something that we think might possibly be too direct for the listener/reader.

I´ve been wanting to ask you - if you please - to correct mistakes [STRIKE]having[/STRIKE] which/that have slipped into my mails. It´s just that we learn by mistakes. If there is no competent native speaker around who makes (that's not wrong, but 'to make' is perhaps more natural)... you aware of what is wrong or sounds awkward, we will keep the mistakes in mind, not even getting aware of them without even being aware of them.

The reason why I refrained from doing so was just that I was afraid it could be (mis-)understood as being impertinent. Not at all. That's one of the many things this forum is for.

So if it doesn´t turn out to be a life-time´s work, you are welcome to give me linguistic pieces of advice, nay, you would do me a favour. But only if you feel like it. Don't worry - if we haven't the time or nclination, we simply don't respond. Of course, I also welcome and even encourage all the other native speakers to do so. Thus, correcting me is anything but a downside - as you put it -, on/to the contrary, I would appreciate it very much. You may take it from me! We live and learn!
I suggest that you don't address posts in the public thread to individual members. This may discourage others from responding, and they may well have better ideas than the person you have addressed.:)
 

Hucky

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Hi there everybody,

I quoted the following example (1) before. You might remember that I asked you why the present perfect is used here although the author refers to a previous page of his discourse (thus to the past). I accepted your convincing argument as to which the author wants to emphasize the fact that what he said before is still true.

1) I have said that it is not primarily ...



In the meantime, however, I kept on reading. In doing so, I have come across a similar sentence (2) by the same authour in the same book, this time in the past simple.

2) I said above that ...

Can anyone account for this apparent discrepancy?

What is more, I spotted an even more astounding sentence there (3). This is a clear-cut case of reference to the past, but what do we encounter here? - The present perfect? Isn´t this bewildering?

3) Long before history began we men have got
together ...


I´m really curious to see how you´ll unravel this mystery?


Hucky

 

Hucky

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I suggest that you don't address posts in the public thread to individual members. This may discourage others from responding, and they may well have better ideas than the person you have addressed.:)

This is not what I was driving at, but you seem to be right. You see, we live and learn not just as far as language is concerned.
 

5jj

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I accepted [...] 1) I have said that it is not primarily ...

In the meantime, however, I kept on reading. In doing so, I have come across a similar sentence (2) by the same author in the same book, this time in the past simple.

2) I said above that ...

Can anyone account for this apparent discrepancy?

There is no law saying we have to be consistent (note the words of yours that I (have) underlined). We could argue that in #1 the speaker is presenting his previously-uttered words as a universal truth, and that in #2 he is thinking of the time he actually said (wrote) the words. Speakers usually make the (subconscious) choice of tense/aspects at the moment of speaking. They don't often think back to a tense they used five minutes (or five pages) ago. [...]

3) Long before history began we men have got together ...

I´m really curious to see how you´ll unravel this mystery?
I can't. The writer wrote something that most of us would not normally write. Pobody's nerfect.
5
 

Hucky

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I can follow your line of reasoning. That´s certainly the answer to the question. There is no other way to account for it.

Thanks

Hucky
 
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