Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

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Rinoceronte

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(continued)

11. “It has been hot for two hours” is Present Perfect tense, and thus, Present Perfect can render the ongoing actions”

No. This is not Present Perfect, although it looks like one. It’s Present Perfect Continuous, where the gerund of the lexical verb “to be” was omitted for “euphony reasons”. The complete sentence should look: “It has been being hot for two hours”. If you don’t like the combination “been being” (which does not speak well for your grammar knowledge, by the way), omit it, but don’t claim that the tense has changed as well. It hasn’t..

12. English Tenses Table
Once again, please, have a look at it:
tenses_table -
One of the biggest English verb system problems is in the fewness of those who can surely say, what category is represented by the columns in this Table. If you decide to present some data in form of a 2D table, the first thing to do would be to understand those 2D, i.e., to name the rows category and the columns category. Rows are known by everyone. It’s time. Columns are known by no one. It’s aspect.

13. “Active verbs sometimes can be used in Present Perfect for an ongoing action”
The main vice of the Stative Verbs Rule which “permits” some ongoing actions to be rendered by Present Perfect, is that ordinary people, who never heard about “stative verbs”, nor care about them, use such cases as models to follow, and erroneously admit that they can do it with any verb, even with an active one. Hence, we got totally ungrammatical constructions like “I have lived here for 20 years (meaning I’m still living here)”, “I have worked here for 2 years (meaning, I’m still working here)”, etc. Among such “ordinary” people you will find the authors of “TOEFL Preparation Guide”, issued in 1982.

14. “Perfect Continuous tenses are not used in Passive Voice constructions”
That’s blatant. They are not fully legitimate. They are irreplaceable, since there is no legitimate way to replace the continuity. The rephrasing of the sentence into Active Voice is neither a good idea, since the reason of the Passive Voice is that we don’t know who the doer of the action is, or don’t want to reveal him.

15. “Passive Perfect Continuous tenses may be replaced by Passive Perfect tenses”
That would be the same as if you would have replaced night with day. Or white with black. Perfect tenses and corresponding Perfect Continuous tenses are as diametrical, as perfect and imperfect aspects are.

16. “Aktionsart solves the aspectlessness problem”
No way. Although this approach is based on sound sense, it does not give you the possibility to group the verbs automatically. Besides, the representatives of the aspectful grammars would reasonably insist that the difference between the aspects is significant even for those verbs which Aktionsart considers “aspectly disregardable”.

17. “The “perfective” postpositions solve the aspectlessness problem. They give you the possibility to tell the aspects in Simple tenses”
An idea that sounds good too, but neither works. You can do this only with particular verbs. And which postposition to use with which verb: “I smoked off”? “I smoked out?”. No need to mention that postpositions (including the “perfective” ones) change verbs unrecognizably.

18. Passive in Simple Tenses.
A trap. Passive Present Simple, Passive Past Simple and Passive Future Simple all can be understood ambiguously, i.e., translated into other languages with both perfect and imperfect aspect verbs. Compare:
The work is done (the action is over, i.e. past). – The work is done regularly (the action is ongoing, i.e., present).
The table is made of wood. – The key is kept under the rug.
Warning your students about this ambiguity would reduce the number of sleepless nights for them in future.

19. “The combination “been being” does not exist”
It does exist. And what’s more, the ability to use it shows your level of English grammar proficiency. Take this “being”-brick out, and the whole house collapses. Better not to touch it.

20. “We can trust English tenses names”
Do it – and you are doomed. Present Perfect is not present, Perfect Continuous is not perfect, Continuous tenses are Moment tenses.

Artem Ivantsov. All Rights Reserved. Quoting is permitted with the proper reference only.
 
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birdeen's call

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I'd better start using "been being" more often. I don't want my house to collapse. But I sure didn't experience any sleepless nights because of the passive voice even though it did confuse me.
 
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BobK

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I'd better start using "been being" more often. I don't want my house to collapse. But I sure didn't experience any sleepless nights because of the passive voice even though it did confuse me.
Don't believe everything you're told ;-) (Incidentally, I don't have time to plough through all this, but I detect that in some cases 'disproofs' is being used with the 'meaning' unfounded assertions to the contrary; I'm sure some of it's true though. Indeed, I'm quite a fan of unfounded assertions to the contrary. ;-)

b
 

Rinoceronte

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In fact, I would like to support BobK. Don't believe, think yourself.

Needless to mention, I admit there might be something to correct, to rephrase or to be better worded or deeper founded. Whoever wants to participate in perfecting it, be my guest and friend. Cheers.
 

Rinoceronte

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Sorry for a misprint. The paragraph 14 should read "...they are not only fully legitimate...".
 

5jj

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[FONT=&quot]Here we go again[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Rinoceronte. Unlike Bob K, I did have time to plough through it all - and time to respond to some more of your points[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11. No, Rinoceronte, there is no being in the sentence, and it is therefore not Continuous. You cannot just arbitrarily decide that one tense or aspect is another. Compare:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]a. He has been naughty.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and: b. He has been being naughty.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Verbs used with a stative meaning are, almost by definition, not used in a Continuous form. Here the Continuous-isation (what a splendid word!) of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]BE [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]suggests that it is not being used statively. Indeed, it is being used with a similar meaning to behave.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In your example[/FONT][FONT=&quot]BE[/FONT][FONT=&quot] i[/FONT][FONT=&quot]s being used statively, and the form is NOT Continuous[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]12. Once again you are giving your personal views on aspect not facts.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. You write: we got totally ungrammatical constructions like “I have lived here for 20 years (meaning I’m still living here)”, “I have worked here for 2 years (meaning, I’m still working here)”. They are NOT ungrammatical, Rinoceronte. They are almost classic examples of the way the so-called Present Perfect Progressive/Continuous is used in English today. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14. Nobody who really knows the language suggests that “Perfect Continuous tenses are not used in Passive Voice constructions”. What we suggest (and know from observation to be true) is that they are rare. Whether you like it or not, except by older people (including me), the passive is being used less these days, even in some academic writing.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]15, The Passive Perfect Continuous and the Passive Perfect (presumably you mean Non-Continuous’) are not as different as night and day. Whilst longer constructions have been being used for many years by language illuminati such as you and I, many less enlightened people will replace a Continuous with a Simple or a Passive with an Active with almost no change of meaning. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By the time it arrives in Prague, the car will have been being driven for 23 hours non-stop.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That is a possible utterance, but I feel that most people would actually say either:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]By the time it arrives in Prague, the car will have been driven for 23 hours non-stop.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]By the time Fred arrives in Prague, he will have been driving for 23 hours non-stop.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]16. OK, I take back what I said about my being one of the language illuminati. I don’t understand your point 16[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
17. Nor 17[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]18. Most English verb constructions can be ambiguous, and I suspect the same is true of many languages. So long as we teachers do not fall into the trap of insisting that each tense or aspect can convey only one meaning, then context and co-text can help establish the meaning. To take a more basic example: I am responding to Rinoceronte could have several meanings when we have no context or co-text. However, when it is the answer to one of these three questions, we know which of three possible meanings it conveys.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What are you doing over there? I am responding to Rinoceronte (at this very moment)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What are you doing these days? I am responding to Rinoceronte (though not actually at [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]this very moment)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What are you doing after I leave? I am responding to Rinoceronte (an activity arranged [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]for the future)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
19. I am afraid I am one of those weird people who do not judge a person’s proficiency in English by his or her ability to use appropriately the combination ‘being been’. I’d be more inclined to have doubts about the ability of people who write,” One of the biggest English verb system problems is in the fewness of those who can surely say, what category is represented by the columns in this Table.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]20. I agree that our current names for the tenses are not very helpful. Nor is the idea of Continuous tenses (?) being Moment tenses.[/FONT]
 

Rinoceronte

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No, Rinoceronte, there is no being in the sentence
No, no, no, dear Fivejedjong, I do know about the difference between "He has been naughty" and "He has been being naughty"! The problem is that people throughout the globe don't know about it! For most of them the phrases are equal, although in the first he is not naughty anymore, while in the second he keeps being naughty. But people don't know that, since the gerund for the lexical verb "to be" has been decided to be allowed to be omitted in Present Perfect Continuous.

They are almost classic examples of the way the so-called Present Perfect Progressive/Continuous is used in English today.
Yep. The classical ungrammatical use. Sorry, it's ungrammatical, I insist.

What we suggest (and know from observation to be true) is that they are rare
On many English language forums the native speakers insist such forms do not exist. That's the problem.

[FONT="]By the time it arrives in Prague, the car will have been driven for 23 hours non-stop.[/FONT][/I][FONT="] Or[/FONT]
[FONT="]By the time Fred arrives in Prague, he will have been driving for 23 hours non-stop.[/FONT][/I][/QUOTE]That is true. But seeing that, people equal also "The game has been being played" to "The game has been played". That's the problem.

[QUOTE][FONT="]16. OK, I take back what I said about my being one of the language illuminati. I don’t understand your point 16[/FONT]
[FONT="]
17. Nor 17[/FONT][/QUOTE]I will address this a bit later, ok?

[QUOTE]Most English verb constructions can be ambiguous, and I suspect the same is true of many languages[/QUOTE]Not of Slavic ones.
[QUOTE]
[FONT="] I’d be more inclined to have doubts about the ability of people who write,” One of the biggest English verb system problems is in the fewness of those who can surely say, what category is represented by the columns in this Table.[/FONT]
So far it has been (being?) a pleasure. Do you try to insult me here?

Nevertheless, thank you very much for the thoughtful dialogue.
 
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Tullia

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[FONT=&quot]19. I am afraid I am one of those weird people who do not judge a person’s proficiency in English by his or her ability to use appropriately the combination ‘being been’. [/FONT]


Sacrilege! Clearly that is the single most important factor in judging *anyone* on *any* matter, not just their English proficiency or lack thereof? I feel you should leave this board at once, hanging your head in shame.


P.S. I'm neither old nor a fuddy-duddy and still manage to be an enthusiastic advocate for the Passive ;-).
 

Tdol

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P.S. I'm neither old nor a fuddy-duddy and still manage to be an enthusiastic advocate for the Passive ;-).

I think the passive has been unfairly victimised and vilified. :shock:
 

Tullia

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I think the passive has been unfairly victimised and vilified. :shock:

Perhaps some form of cross-media campaign, including of course viral marketing, to raise awareness of the passive is required?
 

birdeen's call

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Not of Slavic ones.
That's generally what I don't like about the things you're saying. You seem to want English to fit your (our) Slavic understanding of grammar. You say something is necessary - I say no it isn't. Look at these people. They're doing perfectly well with what you call ungrammatical usage. The times, they are a-changing and the old good PIE is gone.

Also, I'd agree that we don't have as many syntactical ambiguities in Slavic languages as the English language. It's only an impression though, I don't have any reliable data about that. Do you? It's certainly not true that we don't have any ambiguities at all. Doing this kind of comparative research could be very interesting but difficult too.
 
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Raymott

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(continued)

11. “It has been hot for two hours” is Present Perfect tense, and thus, Present Perfect can render the ongoing actions”
No. This is not Present Perfect, although it looks like one. It’s Present Perfect Continuous, where the gerund of the lexical verb “to be” was omitted for “euphony reasons”. The complete sentence should look: “It has been being hot for two hours”. If you don’t like the combination “been being” (which does not speak well for your grammar knowledge, by the way), omit it, but don’t claim that the tense has changed as well. It hasn’t..
I partly agree with the sentiment of this one.
It has been hot; he has been naughty.
If the second means "He has been being naughty", then the first means "It has been being hot".
They aren't expressed in the continuous tense; but the meaning is generally continuous in both.
If the meaning is not continuous, you could have the following sensible conversation:
A: Phew. It's been hot today!
B: When?
A: Between 2.30 and 3pm.

But even the simple past tense implies some degree of continuity with these sentences. "It was hot today" generally doesn't mean that at one time today it became hot for a moment then wasn't again.
The problem with the way this point is expressed (and perhaps others - I haven't bothered reading them all) is that the tense is the way a sentence is written - not what it means.
"I go to London tomorrow" is in the present tense. "I'm going to London tomorrow" is in the present progressive.
Along with "I will go to London tomorrow", they all have future meaning, but they're not all in the "future tense".
 
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5jj

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Sacrilege! Clearly that is the single most important factor in judging *anyone* on *any* matter, not just their English proficiency or lack thereof? I feel you should leave this board at once, hanging your head in shame.


P.S. I'm neither old nor a fuddy-duddy and still manage to be an enthusiastic advocate for the Passive ;-).


I grovel.
My head has been being hung in shame since I read your remark.
I suspect that if you had been an old-fashioned dictator and I one of your subjects I would have been being hanged by now.
 

Tullia

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I grovel.
My head has been being hung in shame since I read your remark.
I suspect that if you had been an old-fashioned dictator and I one of your subjects I would have been being hanged by now.

You would have been drawn, and possibly quartered also.

Raymott, announcements have been sent to all the major national newspapers, in which our coming campaign will be announced.
It has been suggested by my friend that a tune for your little ditty should be composed in order that it might be released into the charts and an attempt at the Christmas Number 1 spot be made.
 

5jj

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It is thought by me that the whole UsingEnglish site should be shut down on the grounds that too many active subversives are being harboured there. A new PassivesBeingUsed site could be set up for those by whom the use of the divine form is understood.

Or perhaps the present site should be retained so that inferior beings can be assisted towards the light. A beginning has been made by me on this task. It was noted that even people by whom better should be known have been seduced into the paths of activism: improvements on postings are noted below, and heed should be taken by:

BobK: Everything you're told should not be believed.

Birdeen’s’ call: That's generally what is disliked about the things being said by you. It seems (not passive, but at least it’s impersonal – ed) that a situation is desired by you: that English is fitted into (our) Slavonic understanding of grammar . etc

Raymott: If "He has been being naughty" is meant by the second, "It has been being hot" is meant by the first. etc.

Tullia: It is felt that the board should be left by you, your head (being)* hung in shame.

And even Tdol: It is thought the passive has been unfairly victimised and vilified.

* An uncertainty has been encountered here. If the being is omitted, is it the case that ‘the gerund for the lexical verb "to be" has been decided to be allowed to be omitted’ ?
 

Tullia

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Tullia: It is felt that the board should be left by you, your head (being)* hung in shame.

Apologies are made by me; they are presented with the fervent hope that they will be accepted by you, and all other people by whom this board is frequented.

Seppuku is being considered.
 

Rinoceronte

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That's generally what I don't like about the things you're saying. You seem to want English to fit your (our) Slavic understanding of grammar. You say something is necessary - I say no it isn't. Look at these people. They're doing perfectly well with what you call ungrammatical usage. The times, they are a-changing and the old good PIE is gone.

Also, I'd agree that we don't have as many syntactical ambiguities in Slavic languages as the English language. It's only an impression though, I don't have any reliable data about that. Do you? It's certainly not true that we don't have any ambiguities at all. Doing this kind of comparative research could be very interesting but difficult too.
You are right. Those guys are doing perfectly well (if we don't take into consideration that they have been considering renaming the English tenses). It's us who are not doing well being ordered not to use the imperfect-aspect-native verbs in imperfect tenses.

Reliable data? My Slavic languages have such a strict grammar system that even for the least literal person it's very difficult to compose a phrase wrongly or ambiguously, no matter what tense, mood or voice it is. I suspect Polish boasts as a developed structure. But if you can convince me to the contrary, be my guest.
 

Rinoceronte

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A: Phew. It's been hot today!
B: When?
A: Between 2.30 and 3pm.
You can't say so. If "it's been hot" in your dialogue is a pure Present Perfect, then you can't answer "between...", since it's continuity, which is not for perfect tenses. If "it's been hot" is a reduced version of Present Perfect Progressive - "It's been (being) hot", then you can't mention the finish time of 3 pm, since Present Perfect Progressive describes an action which is not over yet, which is still lasting.
 

Rinoceronte

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But even the simple past tense implies some degree of continuity with these sentences. "It was hot today" generally doesn't mean that at one time today it became hot for a moment then wasn't again.
The problem with the way this point is expressed (and perhaps others - I haven't bothered reading them all) is that the tense is the way a sentence is written - not what it means.
"I go to London tomorrow" is in the present tense. "I'm going to London tomorrow" is in the present progressive.
Along with "I will go to London tomorrow", they all have future meaning, but they're not all in the "future tense".
Of course simple tense imply great deal of continuity, since simple tenses include both aspects: perfect (completed action) and imperfect (continuity).

If someone started to use the tense for the purposes it was not designed for, how does it make the whole system adapt to it?
 
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