Uncountable nouns

5jj said:

In my opinion, to say that some nouns are always countable (or non-countable) would not be provably true, and is therefore a potential lie.

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Maybe in the beginning (as a learner is slowly making progress) it makes sense to be that categorical. The last thing I myself want is lie to my students. I'd rather be reticent about it than later be censured.

5jj said:

In my opinion, to say that some nouns are always countable (or non-countable) would not be provably true, and is therefore a potential lie.

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The same goes, probably, for my statement about every noun being potentially countable and potentially uncountable. But I did furnish it with an "I do believe".

PS: 'An "I do believe"' doesn't sound right to me, but I have no idea why. I would delete the article now, but I then this PS wouldn't make sense.

Out of curiosity, I just did a little Google search for "hydrogens", and apparently some people use it to mean "hydrogen atoms". For example, 'For example, the four hydrogen atoms of methane (CH[SUB]4[/SUB]) are homotopic with one another, as are the two hydrogens or the two chlorines in dichloromethane (CH[SUB]2[/SUB]Cl[SUB]2[/SUB])', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topicity. I guess it's fine, but I don't particulary like it.

Chicken Sandwich said:

Out of curiosity, I just did a little Google search for "hydrogens", and apparantly some people use it to mean "hydrogen atoms". For example, 'For example, the four hydrogen atoms of methane (CH[SUB]4[/SUB]) are homotopic with one another, as are the two hydrogens or the two chlorines in dichloromethane (CH[SUB]2[/SUB]Cl[SUB]2[/SUB]).' I guess it's fine, but I don't particulary like it.

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Interesting. Is it impossible in Dutch? A Polish chemist might also use the Polish plural here, though this is rather informal.

Bennevis said:

Maybe in the beginning (as a learner is slowly making progress) it makes sense to be that categorical.

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Nah!

If your child, your constituent, your employee or your student discovers that you have lied to them once, they may never have confidence. in you again One doesn't have to tell the whole truth, but one should never be categorical about an untruth. (The Gospel according to 5jj)

birdeen's call said:

Interesting. Is it impossible in Dutch? A Polish chemist might also use the Polish plural here, though this is rather informal.

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It's possible in theory, but it's not something that's likely to appear in textbooks. In fact, now that I think of it, I have never seen this usage. I agree that if you do use it, it sounds rather informal.

Moreover, I have used a number of English textbooks, and I don't recall seeing this shorthand notation for X atoms.

5jj said:

Nah!

If your child, your constituent, your employee or your student discovers that you have lied to them once, they may never have confidence. in you again One doesn't have to tell the whole truth, but one should never be caterogical about an untruth. (The Gospel according to 5jj)

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Still, let's be honest and get to the bottom of it once and for all. Tell me honestly, as a native speaker, do you PERSONALLY believe there ARE strictly countable or uncountable nouns? The word "passenger" - need an example, the word "money" - need an example. 5jj, level with me and prove to me that there are no nouns that are absolutely countable or uncountable. I'm saying this as someone who just wants a spade to be called "spade".

Chicken Sandwich said:

It's possible in theory, but it's not something that's likely to appear in textbooks. I agree that it sounds rather informal.

Moreover, I have used quite a number of English textbooks, and I don't recall this shorthand usage for X atoms.

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We are in grey areas here.

As a teacher, i would not tell my students that hydrogen and chlorine were countable nouns. Indeed, I would almost certainly suggest that they always assume they are used non-countably. Such a suggestion would serve them well.

If one of them produced the sentence that CS found, I would express surprise - but then I am not a scientist, and the language of scientists not infrequently surprises me. I see no problem here - unless we have created the problem for ourselves by insisting that sentence X is always wrong.

Bennevis said:

5jj, level with me and prove to me that there are no nouns that are absolutely countable or uncountable. I'm saying this as someone who just wants a spade to be called "spade".

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You are asking the wrong questions. You cannot prove a negative. In fact, you cannot prove anything. For example, you cannot prove that humans have a heart.

Chicken Sandwich said:

You are asking the wrong questions. You cannot prove a negative. In fact, you cannot prove anything. For example, you cannot prove that humans have a heart.

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Well, I don't have to prove anything. Everything has already been proven. It's not my turn to disprove that the word "passenger" is ABSOLUTELY countable.

Bennevis said:

Well, I don't have to prove anything. Everything has already been proven. It's not my turn to disprove that the word "passenger" is ABSOLUTELY countable.

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I'm not saying that you have to do anything, by "you" I mean "one". Asking 5jj to "prove" that there are no X is just rediculous. That's like all the bigfoot proponents who constantly tell the skeptics, 'You prove that bigfoot doesn't exist.' It can't be done.

Bennevis said:

Everything has already been proven.

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You're wrong. Nothing has been proven.

Bennevis said:

Still, let's be honest and get to the bottom of it once and for all. Tell me honestly, as a native speaker, do you PERSONALLY believe there ARE strictly countable or uncountable nouns? The word "passenger" - need an example, the word "money" - need an example. 5jj, level with me and prove to me that there are no nouns that are absolutely countable or uncountable. I'm saying this as someone who just wants a spade to be called "spade".

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Read what I have written. I personally believe that there are almost certainly no nouns that are always and only countable (or uncountable). My own inability to produce a convincing example for 'a furniture' does not prove that it's impossible, as BC showed. I am tired at the moment, and cannot come up with a non-countable 'passenger' example. That does not 'prove' there isn't one.

I wonder why you are so obsessed with this question. Even if there are some nouns which are invariably used countably or uncountably, it's still the case that there are plenty of others which are both, leaving us where? Leaving us with absolutely no "rule" that you can teach your students.

I don't understand what all this ado is about. I am just trying to figure out whether English has changed so much lately that countable nouns all of a sudden are allowed to be uncountable and vice versa.
Some of the native speakers here keep saying that, yes, that kind of metamorphosis is possible. I just want to know the truth.

Bennevis said:

I don't understand what all this ado is about. I am just trying to figure out whether English has changed so much lately that countable nouns all of a sudden are allowed to be uncountable and vice versa.
Some of the native speakers here keep saying that, yes, that kind of metamorphosis is possible. I just want to know the truth.

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Nothing has changed. It's not a question of 'countable' nouns being suddenly allowed to be uncountable. The labelling of nouns as 'countable' or 'uncountable' was always slightly artificial. We have always known that 'uncountable' water can be 'countable' if it refers to a glass/type of water. There is a problem only if one tries to insist that certain nouns are always and only countable (or non-countable).

But isn't it obvious that "bottle" is always countable or "window" is always countable?

Bennevis said:

But isn't it obvious that "bottle" is always countable or "window" is always countable?

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No

Bennevis said:

But isn't it obvious that "bottle" is always countable or "window" is always countable?

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I never thought she’d have the bottle to do it!*

Source: Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English

5jj, please, don't get mad, buddy. Just prove it!

I think perhaps more examples are needed. I'll try to work on that.