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  1. #21
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    Smile Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    I repeat what I said before, there are probably more speakers of Indian English than there are people in the USA.
    How is this relevant?

    There could be, I don't know, more people in China who speak English than in the US. This may not be true now, but it could be true one day. This would not make errors in "Chinese English" acceptable or correct, nor should it give rise to the notion of "Chinese English" as a dialect of English.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Professor David Crystal, one of the world’s foremost experts on English, said people will effectively have to learn two varieties of the language - one spoken in their home country, and a new kind of Standard English which can be internationally understood.

    The English spoken in countries with rapidly-booming economies, such as India and China, will increasingly influence this global standard, he said.


    It seems grammar and usage are also dynamic entities of language and bound to change with time.

    Here are some interesting articles on the same

    Indian English
    Amardeep Singh: Indian English -- Does It Exist? What Do We Call It?
    http://www.davidcrystal.com/DC_articles/English5.pdf
    http://www.davidcrystal.com/DC_articles/English19.pdf
    Thank you, come again - Indian English set to become major dialect | Über Desi
    http://www.cambridge.org/elt/docs/Da...ntheNewWor.pdf
    http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=158377

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    I feel what distingusihes a native speaker from a non native speaker apart from the accent are these small differences in grammar and usage. I remember chatting with native speakers in chat rooms, and inspite of me being grammatically correct they are able to decipher that I am not a native speaker, they would comment, we dont write or frame sentences the way you are doing. The question which I face then is that, is this a shortcoming? and if it is, then how can i overcome it?
    Last edited by anupumh; 04-Sep-2009 at 22:25.

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    Smile Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by anupumh View Post
    I feel what distingusihes a native speaker from a non native speaker apart from the accent are these small differences in grammar and usage. I remember chatting with native speakers in chat rooms, and inspite of me being grammatically correct they are able to decipher that I am not a native speaker, they would comment, we dont write or frame sentences the way you are doing. The question which I face then is that, is this a shortcoming? and if it is, then how can i overcome it?
    I'll deal with your last question:

    exposure = listen, read - study and observe what you listen to and read

    How? podcasts, radio shows that are streamed through the Internet

    movies - Watch a movie once for enjoyment. Be a passive listener. Watch the same movie again - and again. When you watch it again, observe, take notes, study, ask questions.

    Enlist the help of a teacher to guide you to key typical phrases and ways, as you say, "to frame your thoughts and ideas". That's a good way of putting it.

    Those are just some ideas and suggestions. It's really, I think, a difficult thing to deal with by typing it out.

    One more thing: Listening and reading are passive activities, and they are receptive skills. If we understand what we hear or read, we tend to not think much else of it. However, to sound more native-like - more natural to native speakers of English - you have to be an active listener and an active reader. After reading an article, don't just put it down. Get a highlighter, or a pen, and highlight or underline language items that are of interest to you. Observe how words go together. Take notes. Ask yourself, "What kind of language is this?" Is this vocabulary something that is more active or more passive? How is it used? Is it formal? Is it informal? Is it serious? Read and listen from a wide variety of resources.
    Last edited by PROESL; 04-Sep-2009 at 23:26.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    Oh! Why would that be? You defend a lot of American "dialect" which is ungrammatical in BrE. I repeat what I said before, there are probably more speakers of Indian English than there are people in the USA.
    Informal usage in any variety of English from countries that have populations who are recognized as native English speakers is not the same as the English that has taken form among Indian English speakers. The two concepts are not comparable. I do not believe that India has a population of "native speakers of English" in the same way Australia and New Zealand do, for example.

    I have a pronunciation student form India who speaks English very well. He's a pronunciation student. However, I'm not about to call his very minor grammatical errors "informal usage" or "Indian English dialect".

    I comment on informal usage and give my opinion on each item of informal usage. Those who have been reading my posts will know that I don't automatically approve of anything labeled "informal" in the disputed usage category of English language items.

    I don't believe in saying "it's not acceptable", and walking away from the matter. That's too easy. Merely commenting on informal language usage and providing an opinion, and suggesting to ELLs that informal usage is not a sign of poor language skills should not give rise to the idea that I "defend American dialect". These informal usage topics exist in English English and other styles of English as well.
    Last edited by PROESL; 04-Sep-2009 at 23:46.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Are native speakers always grammatically correct? Does the usage of any native speaker in any movie or otherwise should be accepted and followed blindly?

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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by anupumh View Post
    1) Are native speakers always grammatically correct? 2) Does the usage of any native speaker in any movie or otherwise should be accepted and followed blindly?
    1) No, native speakers of English are not always grammatically correct. However, there is a such thing as "the kind of error that a native speaker would make" and "the kind of error that an ESL speaker would make".

    2) No, I would not recommend that at all. A native speaker of English who is aware of usage issues and typical grammatical errors heard among native speakers should be able to comment objectively on questionable language items, as well as give a more subjective viewpoint on any such language item called into question by usage notes, or something similar, in a dictionary.
    Last edited by PROESL; 05-Sep-2009 at 00:09.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    1) No, native speakers of English are not always grammatically correct. However, there is a such thing as "the kind of error that a native speaker would make" and "the kind of error that an ESL speaker would make".

    2) No, I would not recommend that at all. A native speaker of English who is aware of usage issues and typical grammatical errors heard among native speakers should be able to comment objectively on questionable language items, as well as give a more subjective viewpoint on any such language item called into question by usage notes, or something similar, in a dictionary.
    When you refer to learning from movies, the common language is, which you will label as informal and slang, how advisable is it pick up and start using it? I feel, I would not rather use informal and slang language. Yes I would although like to know, what feeling and emotion is being conveyed via them, so that I can understand and appropriately respond. What do you think?

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by anupumh View Post
    When you refer to learning from movies, the common language is, which you will label as informal and slang, how advisable is it pick up and start using it? I feel, I would not rather use informal and slang language. Yes I would although like to know, what feeling and emotion is being conveyed via them, so that I can understand and appropriately respond. What do you think?

    I would not say that informal language and slang are always the same, though slang is, of course, informal.

    As far as using language items that are questionable or understood to be informal, this is where one needs a teacher to present an objective viewpoint. I believe I've done that in the "bad" and "real" as adverbs thread. I've also given my personal viewpoint of those informal usage items.

    Authors of books - ESL grammars - won't often go out on a limb and expose themselves to criticism from those with more conservative viewpoints, in my opinion. So it may be hard to find a good guide in these matters.

    One thing I would always ask is this: Why? I think I've provided good reasoning when it comes to "why". I've also backed my views up with well-known authors and publications. I usually quote from Practical English Usage by Michael Swan and the American Heritage Dictionary. That's a good balance - both sides of the Atlantic.
    Last edited by PROESL; 05-Sep-2009 at 00:48.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Feeling Sleepy Feeling Hungry

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    I would not say that informal language and slang are always the same, though slang is, of course, informal.

    As far as using language items that are questionable or understood to be informal, this is where one needs a teacher to present an objective viewpoint. I believe I've done that in the "bad" and "real" as adverbs thread. I've also given my personal viewpoint of those informal usage items.

    Authors of books - ESL grammars - won't often go out on a limb and expose themselves to criticism from those with more conservative viewpoints, in my opinion. So it may be hard to find a good guide in these matters.

    One thing I would always ask is this: Why? I think I've provided good reasoning when it comes to "why". I've also backed my views up with well-known authors and publications. I usually quote from Practical English Usage by Michael Swan and the American Heritage Dictionary. That's a good balance - both sides of the Atlantic.
    Beyond doubt. You not only provide the right structure but also provide the why? And I wont hesitate to say that you are the only one who does it elaborately and in the finest of details. It is commendable and I admire for your in depth knowledge of grammar.

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