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Thread: I thought I had

  1. #101
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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    Why does it look that way? What is the reasoning on which you base this assertion?
    It's quite simply my appreciation and understanding of my language which I have been speaking, reading and studying for more than 50 years (and teaching for somewhat less).

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I did provide clear, logical reasons supporting what I thought and why. I don't know why you say I haven't done so.

    I think we've all stated our opinions here, haven't we? I just didn't want anyone to finish it off with something like "Right, so now we all see: they're both equally correct" in case new readers might misunderstand that no consensus had been reached. Or was reached.
    Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you posted in another post that you agreed that they are both correct without a context, which is what I've been posting. I could go back and look for it, but it was recent, and it has gone on long enough. Just the same, that's what I remember reading.

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    It's quite simply my appreciation and understanding of my language which I have been speaking, reading and studying for more than 50 years (and teaching for somewhat less).
    That's about as good as saying this: "I'm more competent with the language. Therefore, I'm correct." That's obviously not reasonable.

    How many years one speaks a native language is not relevant to this discussion. One's claim is not further supported by such information.

    If you think that "I thought I had replied" is more correct than "I thought I replied", then you should have a reason. In my view, a reason, such as yours, would be based on such things as this: formal is more correct; perceived notions of "classroom English"; the grammar books seem to indicate that it is more correct. Just the same, grammar books present the past perfect, it still does not correct that sentences must follow this model or pattern: I thought I had replied. Using the simple past in the second clause is equally correct: I thought I replied.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    Okay, now I'm confused. I thought you posted in another post that you agreed that they are both correct without a context, which is what I've been posting. I could go back and look for it, but it was recent, and it has gone on long enough. Just the same, that's what I remember reading.
    I thought that they both sounded natural, to the ear, and I always have said so, even since my first post. I just think that in the usual situation they're used, there are details about the context that make one a significantly better fit than the other.

    I meant to communicate that when completely divorced from context, there is now nothing we can say about their correctness; that correctness has a good deal to do with context.

    For example "the right" vs "the right-hand side." Both sound like normal English. But if we have a specific context, one may fit much better, to the point that the other is not as good, such as in politics.

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    It's quite simply my appreciation and understanding of my language which I have been speaking, reading and studying for more than 50 years (and teaching for somewhat less).
    It's my language as well.

    Check - your move.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    It's my language as well.

    Check - your move.
    I didn't find Bhaisahab's words there in any way superior -- he was clearly just explaining what entitled him to chime in, as someone asked.

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I thought that they both sounded natural, to the ear, and I always have said so, even since my first post. I just think that in the usual situation they're used, there are details about the context that make one a significantly better fit than the other.
    That brings us back to square one then.

    Even in such contexts which may exist, it is not necessarily the best thing to do to force the use of the past perfect in places where it is not absolutely necessary to form a correct sentence, speaking in terms of how one teaches that is - and otherwise I suppose. So the issue really seems to be that you think the past perfect is necessary in certain situations, and I say in certain situations the past perfect is possible, but it is not absolutely necessary in all such contexts to form a correct and intelligible sentence. If you agree that this is where our paths split, then I'm prepared to say "let's agree to disagree".


  8. #108
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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Well if you give a symmetrical account, I'll agree to disagree. But if you write "absolutely in all contexts" I'm hesitant. I would say that in certain contexts, the pluperfect is required. In others, it's not necessary. So I agree with you about some of it.

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I didn't find Bhaisahab's words there in any way superior -- he was clearly just explaining what entitled him to chime in, as someone asked.
    mm ... Then it seems a rather odd entitlement to draw one's attention to - me that is - seeing as I have the same entitlement but would not have thought of openly stating it or even thinking it necessarily in that particular manner.

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    Default Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    Well if you give a symmetrical account, I'll agree to disagree. But if you write "absolutely in all contexts" I'm hesitant. I would say that in certain contexts, the pluperfect is required. In others, it's not necessary. So I agree with you about some of it.
    In some contexts the past perfect would indeed be a better choice. I see that the disagreement may come in deciding which contexts these could be and for what reasons.

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