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  1. #11
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by albeit View Post
    No, it doesn't always mean words that often and typically go together, Pro.

    ========================

    Main Entry: col·lo·ca·tion
    Pronunciation: \ˌkä-lə-ˈkā-shən\
    Function: noun
    Date: 1605
    : the act or result of placing or arranging together; specifically : a noticeable arrangement or conjoining of linguistic elements (as words)

    ================

    transitive verb
    : to set or arrange in a place or position; especially : to set side by side
    intransitive verb
    : to occur in conjunction with something

    a noticeable arrangement or conjoining of linguistic elements (as words)
    If such an arrangement, or conjoining, is noticeable, then this means that such an arrangement would stand out, or be noticeable, as words that typically and often go together. I would estimate that one extracts too much from the posted definition.

    Collocation, as understood in language learning and language teaching, does not simply refer to an "arrangement of words". That way of viewing "collocation" is so wide open that it could leave the word "collocation" in the context of language meaningless. The meaning of "collocation" is not as flexible as one would like to believe. I think one would believe this, wouldn't one? What about two or three? Do I hear four? Yes, four from the man in the back row! Do I hear five? No five? Last chance for five. No five. Bidding is closed, and the gorilla suit goes to the man in the back row.


  2. #12
    bhaisahab's Avatar
    bhaisahab is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by albeit View Post
    The one example I specifically cited, that you've specifically ignored was from The Independent. It clearly showed that speakers of BrE also adjust adverbs to effect different nuances, to express different emotive feelings.
    I don't accept The Independant (or any newspaper, though some are better than others) as any kind of authority on English language usage.

    I gather you have Raymond Murphy and some other books at your disposal. Why haven't you made reference to them?
    English Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy, published in the UK by Cambridge University Press.
    Unit 110 Adverb placement: "some adverbs (for example always, also, probably) always go with the verb in the middle of the sentence."
    Unit 111 Still, yet and already: "still and already are usually used in the middle of a sentence (see unit 110), yet is usually used at the end of a sentence in modern English." There are some differences in American English usage.

  3. #13
    albeit is offline Banned
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    "I have already finished my work." "I have already done it." These are correct in BrE.
    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    English Grammar in Use by Raymond Murphy, published in the UK by Cambridge University Press.

    Unit 111 Still, yet and already: "still and already are usually used in the middle of a sentence (see unit 110), ...
    bbb

  4. #14
    philo2009 is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by hznaeem View Post
    which one can be more correct or any of them is incorrect?
    "i have done it already" or "i have already done it"

    or "i finished my work already" or "i already finished my work"

    views welcome. Thanks.
    1. Re. placement of the adverb: either medial or final position is possible. Final position tends to be more emphatic.

    2. Re. tense collocation: the first two are standard in BrE, where even in informal use 'already' rarely modifies preterite verb phrases. In AmE, on the other hand, while 'already' with the present perfect will often be encountered in careful, especially academic, use, the occurrence of the preterite with adverbs such as 'already' and 'yet' is considerably more common in everyday speech.

  5. #15
    bhaisahab's Avatar
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by albeit View Post
    bbb
    OED Already 3. N. American colloquial, used at the end of a phrase or sentence as an intensive, often to express impatience. Influenced by Yiddish use "That's enough already".

  6. #16
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    OED Already 3. N. American colloquial, used at the end of a phrase or sentence as an intensive, often to express impatience. Influenced by Yiddish use "That's enough already".
    While one may observe that this example is a colloquial expression, I wouldn't use it to build an argument against the idea that adverb placement is flexible. Using one colloquial example, which appears to be a fixed expression, doesn't strengthen the argument that adverb placement is not flexible. Neither does it provide an argument for pointing out that forms of adverb placement that don't conform to what is most typical or usual should be pointed as nonstandard. This would be very confusing to ELLs when they step into the real world, which is out of the classroom and away from this forum, neither of which are the "real world". Adverb placement is flexible, especially in conversation, and it's best to let English language learners know this. Yes, there is primary adverb placement, and emphasis should be placed on that, and it should be taught first; however, to say that all variations on primary adverb placement are nonstandard, especially in conversation, is not practical when one considers what ELLs will encounter in conversations with and among native speakers. I would also include movies, the radio, podcasts, and even printed material, such as books, newspapers, and magazines. Adverb placement would seem to be less flexible in printed material, but I would not say that flexibility in adverb placement is entirely absent from printed material such as books, newspapers, and magazines. On a learning and teaching note, it is true that some learners may consistently place adverbs such as "always" and "probably" at the start of a sentence. This is obviously transference from their first language. However, that should be contrasted with native speakers who may use this sort of adverb placement, and it should pointed out that this sort of adverb placement is infrequent and not very common, though it does happen. I think it's possible for ELLs to grasp an understanding of this. I believe it's better than saying "this is the one and only correct way". Such explanations are practical and they provide an opportunity to use grammar itself as a method of classroom or lesson conversation. And, of course, such conversations need not be extended, but the could prove to be useful and good practice. Maybe this is area in which ESL is not the same as EFL? It could be.
    Last edited by PROESL; 24-Sep-2009 at 12:17.

  7. #17
    Suzanne's Avatar
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    I think as a British English speaking person you are all delving way to deep. The student wants an explanation which is correct and whether you agree or not AmEng and BrEng are quite different as are all other variations of English. I teach BrEng because this is what I have studied and speak, however the differences in intonation/pronunciation ie 'construction' is neither here nor there. The student needs a straight answer and as per the question posed they are both correct, but decide which you want to follow and stick to it. I have students who watch US TV alot and I am happy for them to speak in an American accent with Americanisms, is this wrong?

  8. #18
    konungursvia's Avatar
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Adverbs have a particular ending that identifies them in the same way cases do for all words in synthetic languages such as Latin, Greek and Armenian.

    "Ignorance of the law excuses no one" can be written in many ways without change of meaning:

    ignorantia legis neminem excusat
    legis ignorantia excusat neminem
    neminem excusat ignorantia legis etc.

    So it's not surprising adverbs sound quite correct in a great many placements; meaning is not lost, so clarity remains, so placement is very flexible.

  9. #19
    albeit is offline Banned
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne View Post

    I think as a British English speaking person you are all delving way to deep. The student wants an explanation which is correct and whether you agree or not AmEng and BrEng are quite different as are all other variations of English.
    I don't think that was at issue here. There are differences, no doubt. The question was whether the difference extended to adverb placement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne View Post
    The student needs a straight answer and as per the question posed they are both correct, but decide which you want to follow and stick to it.
    I'm puzzled, Suzanne. Why would a speaker of BrE decide on one way, when as you say, both are correct, and stick to it. This would leave that speaker at least one meaning, one nuance short of what is available to others who just let the natural rules of their BrE dialect flow?

  10. #20
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    OED Already 3. N. American colloquial, used at the end of a phrase or sentence as an intensive, often to express impatience. Influenced by Yiddish use "That's enough already".
    I wonder why, Bhaisahab, you wouldn't have also included meanings 1 & 2 from the OED.

    Compact OED

    already
    • adverb 1 before the time in question. 2 as surprisingly soon or early as this.

    AskOxford: already
    [emphasis is mine]

    It doesn't appear to me to be particularly sound thinking to suggest that a different meaning [#2] affects how we normally place adverbs.

    M-W
    already

    1 : prior to a specified or implied past, present, or future time : by this time : previously <he had already left when I called>

    2 —used as an intensive <all right already><enough already>

    already - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
    [emphasis is mine]

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