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  1. #31
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    Smile Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I think that one of the interesting points there was that AmE, after the New York Jewish population, has begun to use already with infinitive sentences, placed at their end:

    Get real, already.

    I think it's accurate to say that has permeated our English much more than BrE.
    The main point here, however, has to do with the sentences that the ELL posted and called into question. These are undeniably correct sentences.


  2. #32
    hznaeem is offline Junior Member
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    Smile Re: use of 'already'

    [QUOTE=Suzanne;518606]I think as a British English speaking person you are all delving way to deep. The student wants an explanation which is correct and whether you agree or not AmEng and BrEng..........

    I placed this thread here and i saw that the point has gone so deep, it's interesting and good for deep knowledge about English, i appreciate the knowledge and views of all these people, i am a student and having some problems regarding the speaking English as it's not my mother language and i am most interested in a straight forward answer that which one is wrong and which is correct, but it's looking that sometimes it's hard to find a straight answer, anyway thanks for your comments and i wish to contact you in future for my other problems i got in English. thanks.

  3. #33
    albeit is offline Banned
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by hznaeem View Post
    ... i am a student and having some problems regarding the speaking English as it's not my mother language and i am most interested in a straight forward answer that which one is wrong and which is correct, but it's looking that sometimes it's hard to find a straight answer, anyway thanks for your comments and i wish to contact you in future for my other problems i got in English. thanks.
    You're welcome, Hznaeem.

    You could have received a straight forward answer from the get go but there were some who gave misleading responses about how English actually works.

    It's much too simplistic to try to give you an answer that one is right and one is wrong when both are right. Choices in language are rarely a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of what structures/what collocations to use in certain language/social situations.

    Here's what you need to know and it seems that as you are presently living in the UK, you can test this yourself. I've used Proesl's description because it was convenient and I've added a few points [in red] that I think are important for your BrE life. I hope Proesl doesn't mind.

    Proesl:

    All of them are correct. The primary placement of the adverb "already" is after the auxiliary "have". Using "already" at the end of the sentence is also correct, but would be heard as something that is used less frequently, because it is not the normal neutral.

    The same goes for "I've already finished my work", and "I've finished my work already". The primary placement for "already" is after the subject. A secondary placement would be at the end of a clause or sentence. Both are correct.

    http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/as...already-3.html
    This describes the situation for NaE. As you live in the UK, let me tell you the differences for there. BrE is much much more likely to use the present perfect rather than the simple past in these situations. I have added that in red.

    Now this is easy for you. For now, only use the normal neutral situation for speaking; this is the one that people use most commonly.

    Listen to others around you, listen to TV for examples that vary the placement of these adverbs like already and note the situation that causes the speaker to use a placement other than the normal neutral position.

    Now that you know the real reasons for these shifts in adverb placement, you should be well on your way towards a better understanding of English.
    Last edited by albeit; 25-Sep-2009 at 18:08.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    [QUOTE=hznaeem;518800]
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne View Post
    I think as a British English speaking person you are all delving way to deep. The student wants an explanation which is correct and whether you agree or not AmEng and BrEng..........

    I placed this thread here and i saw that the point has gone so deep, it's interesting and good for deep knowledge about English, i appreciate the knowledge and views of all these people, i am a student and having some problems regarding the speaking English as it's not my mother language and i am most interested in a straight forward answer that which one is wrong and which is correct, but it's looking that sometimes it's hard to find a straight answer, anyway thanks for your comments and i wish to contact you in future for my other problems i got in English. thanks.
    Straightforward > The sentences you posted are correct.

    I know it may be confusing to read two or three different viewpoints here. However, I did catch this in the first post of this thread:
    views welcome. Thanks.
    Last edited by PROESL; 25-Sep-2009 at 04:52.

  5. #35
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    Smile Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne View Post
    I think as a British English speaking person you are all delving way to deep. The student wants an explanation which is correct and whether you agree or not AmEng and BrEng are quite different as are all other variations of English. I teach BrEng because this is what I have studied and speak, however the differences in intonation/pronunciation ie 'construction' is neither here nor there. The student needs a straight answer and as per the question posed they are both correct, but decide which you want to follow and stick to it. I have students who watch US TV alot and I am happy for them to speak in an American accent with Americanisms, is this wrong?
    I've given a few very straightforward answers, both long and short, so I don't think I'm delving too deep, though I understand it may appear that way to others. On the other hand, I would, respectfully, ask if you have a point of view. The student wants to know if the sentences he posted are correct. As you see it, are they correct?


    An online forum is not a regular classroom situation. In a regular classroom situation, there's one teacher, and there's no other teacher to dispute what that teacher says regarding what is right or wrong. However, a student may do so, which would compel and oblige the teacher to provide an explanation for why he or she is right and the student is wrong. Then again, maybe none of this should be taken seriously - or should it?


  6. #36
    The French is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Hello, I am not a teacher,

    but I have just read your explanation, and if I understand well this struggle about the placement of adverbs, it's depends on if you are English or American.

    I believe the normal position it's enough and the trouble about the semantic evolution is another topic.

    I think this little fighting between English teachers show me, there no, one answer but sometimes different ways. I like the idea of flexibility but in writting I prefer follow the normal position for adverbs.

    Have a nice day and thank for your different position.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by The French View Post
    Hello, I am not a teacher,

    but I have just read your explanation, and if I understand well this struggle about the placement of adverbs, it's depends on if you are English or American.

    I believe the normal position it's enough and the trouble about the semantic evolution is another topic.

    I think this little fighting between English teachers show me, there no, one answer but sometimes different ways. I like the idea of flexibility but in writting I prefer follow the normal position for adverbs.

    Have a nice day and thank for your different position.
    I can appreciate any English language learner's desire for a simpler explanation of what is correct and not correct. However, each student and each teacher has his or her reality in using and teaching the English language. If one is living in an English-speaking country or expects to speak to native speakers of English regularly while not living in an English-speaking country, then the simpler explanation is not good enough. An additional point I'd like to make is this: Some things that ELTs call wrong or technically incorrect are rather subjective and based on a personal preference. I'm certain I've used "already" at the end of a present perfect sentence, and there's nothing wrong or incorrect with this in the least. It's not colliquial; it's correct. In speaking of this recently with another person from the US, who is not an ESL teacher, I found that the notion or idea that "I have finished already" could somehow be wrong is met with some degree of puzzlement: Why should it be wrong? It's not wrong. I'll conclude by saying that what I posted here is not unlike what I tell people in real life about adverb placement. I teach ESL, not EFL, so students must understand what they hear and not be confused by hearing that something is wrong in class while they hear that everyday native speaker speech contradicts what they hear is wrong. As for "classroom English", I feel the very existence of the term defies practical thinking and wisdom.

    As for whether or not this is simply a question of BrE versus AmE, I would consider this:

    A general Google search: "has done * already" - Google Search

    A UK Google search: "has done * already" - Google Search

    Not all of the returns turn out to be precisely a version of the formation in question. However, most of them, or at least enough of them, certainly are.

    To put it as mildly as I can, I would call it impractical to suggest that there's something wrong with a present perfect sentence that uses "already" at the end. As well, it's impractical to dismiss such Google searches by simply saying something similar to "One can find anything on Google".
    Last edited by PROESL; 25-Sep-2009 at 17:41.

  8. #38
    The French is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Hello Mr.PROESL,

    I understand clearly what do you mean, but it is a long discussion only to know who have the right answer. Perhaps we can consider that all teachers on this issue have different opinions.

    I believe that the teacher who has said that Google is not a reference is right.

    It's better for all students, that the teachers on this site discuss about the subject. Sometimes we can see the teacher's engagement, but I have noticed teachers who is very hard on their argumentation.

    Now I think all solutions are explained.

    Sorry for my mistakes but I do not write often English. Hope my mind is clear.

    Have a sunny day Mr.PROESL.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by albeit View Post

    A correction to Albeit's PROESL quote:

    All of them are correct. The primary placement of the adverb "already" is after the auxiliary "have". Using "already" at the end of the sentence is also correct, but would be heard as something that is used less frequently, because it is not the normal neutral.


    The same goes for "I've already finished my work", and "I've finished my work already". The primary placement for "already" is after the subject. A secondary placement would be at the end of a clause or sentence. Both are correct.
    You don't need to change these to the present perfect. They are fine as they are using the simple past.

    I already finished my work.
    I finished my work already.

    Both present perfect and simple past are correct here. Using the simple past with "already" is common in everyday conversational US English.
    Last edited by PROESL; 25-Sep-2009 at 17:36.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by The French View Post
    Hello Mr.PROESL,

    I believe that the teacher who has said that Google is not a reference is right.
    Google represents examples of how native speakers of English use English. Sometimes one can find millions of returns in a Google search of a phrase, sentence, or grammatical formation that someone says is wrong.

    Given that Google searches in English are largely representations of how native speakers of English use English, what would be the reason for entirely dismissing Google as a kind of language checker?

    It's true one has to be careful of what one observes in Google, but it's a rather odd idea to think that all such Google searches should be dsmissed as invalid, especially when we can see that there are millions of examples of something. "has done it already"

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