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  1. #11
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    Smile Re: Winner and Loser

    Quote Originally Posted by taghavi View Post
    Hello,
    In spite of trying hard, I dont know how to cope with English. You consider my english too poor yes?

    Read the following, if you want an answer:

    Some of my colleges believe that the learner’s idiosyncrasy should be suppressed and be replaced with the most authentic and understandable equivalents. I believe such a theory will not go anywhere. Instead, the teacher should play the role of a counselor: this is a humanistic approach, based on which, the leaner should “develop inner wisdom” and “be responsible for his own learning”. Observing that rule, I try to be as faithful as possible to the personal views of a learner.

    The unnatural parts reveal themselves at first glance. But the significance of an error tells the reader how to react. For example, in the first line you have tried the word “cronies” which is technically called an error of AVOIDANCE. In the same line, we see “have been” which is categorizedas a SYNTATICO-MORPHOLOGICAL error.
    Because you’re narrating a story, you’re tempted to use the structure that sounds natural in your mother tongue. In this case, as I suggested, we need to use SIMPLE PAST in English.

    “To go after him”, of course, is another error entitled LEXICO-SEMANTIC. As you may remember, I told you not to follow the misleading idioms and compound verbs.
    Here is a similar case: can you suggest something better?
    So, following the same pattern, we can analyze all the words and structures utilized in your text.
    But, as you have admitted, the accumulation of new information can be very confusing. So the problems are to be erased in the long run.

    Finally, one may want to concentrate on the style and other literary considerations. For instance, the reader may ask himself: “Can the allusion really communicate the writer’s purpose?” And questions of that sort.

    As a result, there is more to the problem that meets the eye (= in estelah-e; mitooni be farsi baresh gardooni?)
    So don’t worry.

    By the way, if you really trust the creation of God, you shouldn’t be so obsessed with “perfection”. Please don’t come up with philosophical answers! Just think about it.

    You didn’t answer my question in my first post.

  2. #12
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    Wink Re: Winner and Loser

    Now, let’s see what you mean by your sentence: it’s your attitude and should be reconstructed word-for-word in English or any other languages into which it may be transfigured. A suppresser would immediately replace it with “time and tide wait for no man” or something more or less like this.

    However, because it should be an interactive activity, I ask you to perform some componential analysis for the word “sa'at”. Do you remember “zamin” and “khaak”.
    In the same way, give us at least three meanings for this word. Ok? Then we’ll turn it to English little by little.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Winner and Loser

    [QUOTE=chester_100;544452]Read the following, if you want an answer:

    Some of my colleges believe that the learner’s idiosyncrasy should be suppressed and be replaced with the most authentic and understandable equivalents. I believe such a theory will not go anywhere. Instead, the teacher should play the role of a counselor: this is a humanistic approach, based on which, the leaner should “develop inner wisdom” and “be responsible for his own learning”. Observing that rule, I try to be as faithful as possible to the personal views of a learner.

    The unnatural parts reveal themselves at first glance. But the significance of an error tells the reader how to react. For example, in the first line you have tried the word “cronies” which is technically called an error of AVOIDANCE.
    -Yes, you are right, however, I wonder whether I was correcting or not as I sent this passage to another English speaker who read carefully but didn't edit "cronies".

    -Another thing is that, why Ronbee and Raymoot had their own style and were differet to edit my errors while they were both native; for instance, "However" in both corrections. Please lok at "have been" and "had been" respectively in Ronbee's and Raymott's editing and compare them to your simple past form, here I am again confused which one is acceptable.



    In the same line, we see “have been” which is categorizedas a SYNTATICO-MORPHOLOGICAL error.
    Because you’re narrating a story, you’re tempted to use the structure that sounds natural in your mother tongue. In this case, as I suggested, we need to use SIMPLE PAST in English.

    “To go after him”, of course, is another error entitled LEXICO-SEMANTIC. As you may remember, I told you not to follow the misleading idioms and compound verbs.
    Yes, I agree. How about "go after" used in oxford and consists of two meanings which one means "follow sb"?

    Here is a similar case: can you suggest something better? I don't know
    So, following the same pattern, we can analyze all the words and structures utilized in your text.
    But, as you have admitted, the accumulation of new information can be very confusing. So the problems are to be erased in the long run.

    Finally, one may want to concentrate on the style and other literary considerations. For instance, the reader may ask himself: “Can the allusion really communicate the writer’s purpose?” And questions of that sort.

    As a result, there is more to the problem that meets the eye (= in estelah-e; mitooni be farsi baresh gardooni? pardon? I'm not sure what you say.)
    So don’t worry.

    Yes I remember Zamin and khak, ok, you can start.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Winner and Loser

    Here is a revision of my rewrite. (It's more consistently in the present tense.)
    A turtle, a snail and a tiger have been friends for a long time. However, the turtle and the snail always follow the tiger. Fed up with collecting the wooden spoon , the slow friends make a decision to overcome the tiger at least once, then they can carry the golden medals on their backs. They can't defeat the tiger, and the tiger wins as usual. They will have to follow him and resume their usual roles. Turtles and snails have always been losers; on the other hand, tigers are always winners. It might seem unfair that their positions can't be reversed, but in this case we have to face reality. Dreams are dreams, but we have to face reality in the end. Snails can never become tigers.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Winner and Loser

    Hi,
    Thanks so much for your revision.

  6. #16
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    Post Re: Winner and Loser

    Quote Originally Posted by taghavi View Post

    The unnatural parts reveal themselves at first glance. But the significance of an error tells the reader how to react. For example, in the first line you have tried the word “cronies” which is technically called an error of AVOIDANCE.


    -Yes, you are right, however, I wonder whether I was correcting or not as I sent this passage to another English speaker who read carefully but didn't edit "cronies".

    It depends on the readers’ interpretation. To me, at first, it sounded to be a word to show a “cabal”. Why? Because "cronies" implies a group of politicians who share fixed purposes. Then, I found out that you mean “close friends” without any negative connotations. So I thought you had AVOIDED the word “friend”.
    It actually means “ham paalaky”; is it really good?


    -Another thing is that, why Ronbee and Raymoot had their own style and were differet to edit my errors while they were both native;

    Natives are human beings, not programmed robots. Why do think that they should have said something identical? And, in the same way, they have different views on your theory. It’s not only limited to editing.

    Why do you use animals allusively in your writings? Why did Hafiz enjoy the Wine?
    Why was Shakespeare so concerned with having a child in some of his sonnets?
    Please read the word IDIOSSANCRACY with more attention.

    for instance, "However" in both corrections. Please lok at "have been" and "had been" respectively in Ronbee's and Raymott's editing and compare them to your simple past form, here I am again confused which one is acceptable.

    “Had been” and “were” both refer to the past.
    As I’ve already mentioned, it’s a prevalent error:

    - I have visited (present perfect) my uncle last week (simple past).
    Does it sound natural to you?

    “To go after him”, of course, is another error entitled LEXICO-SEMANTIC. As you may remember, I told you not to follow the misleading idioms and compound verbs.


    Yes, I agree. How about "go after" used in oxford and consists of two meanings which one means "follow sb"?

    Yes, but it’s not the right idiom; the Persian equivalent, on the other hand, means something else. And, by the way, “go after” itself, actually means: make effort to achieve something or find somebody:

    - I decided to go after the job.

    So, as an idiom, it’s not acceptable here, and falls under the category of the errors that I’ve mentioned.
    Here is a similar case: can you suggest something better? I don't know

    So if you don’t know, go through the following procedure, which can prove to be helpful in such cases:



    • Try to decode the central theme of the of the Farsi idiom you have in your mind.
    “Go after sb” suggests obedience, servitude, or servility in your language.

    The theme is almost discovered.



    • Try to figure out the style, significance, and the emotive value of the idiom you have in your mind.
    It’s a common expression. It’s not literary, formal, slang, or informal. It’s something fifty-fifty. However, it does convey a rather negative sense.




    • Try to find an equivalent under the same catogory, and with the same style.
    The category and the style are known to you. Now, just find something.


    One could write: “to be/ become the creature of Sth/ Sb”. Or “be like a sheep”.

    Of course, because you have talked about animals in your text, I wouldn’t suggest the latter here. If there are other suggestions, they will be appreciated.



    • If you fail to find a good idiom, or the concept hasn’t been put into an idiom in the TL, write the non-idiomatic equivalent.
    That is, a simple sentence with primary meanings of the words.



    This is a systematic representation, and is used by professionals. It’s the most (and maybe the only) efficacious method.

    As a result, there is more to the problem that meets the eye (= in estelah-e; mitooni be farsi baresh gardooni? pardon? I'm not sure what you say.)


    ”There is more to the problem that meets the eye” is an idiom; can you turn it to your language?

    Yes I remember Zamin and khak, ok, you can start.
    I wanted it to be interactive activity. But that’s ok for the last time.

    Ch

  7. #17
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    Post Re: Winner and Loser

    - Sa’at:

    1. Hour
    2. Regional/ local time
    3. Watch
    4. Clock

    At first glance, 1 and 2 will be eliminated. There remain two choices, the first of which you decided to choose, and as you saw, it didn’t convey your message.

    Figuratively, “hands of clock” sounds to be better in your sentence.
    To give it a more mythological power, you can capitalize the c: Clock.
    So, the reader will know that you’re trying to send a special message, which is beyond a simple image of a clock. The following is a suggestion:

    “The hands of Clock are not to be harmonized/ synchronized with our random decisions; as a matter of fact [this expression gives a more philosophical mood to the sentence],our decisions should be in harmony with (the pace of) the hands of Clock”

    How will it be decoded?

    Take a look at the following sentences:

    • He drank the bottle. [Did he kill himself by doing so? No! He actually drank the liquid in the bottle]
    • He reads Shakespeare. [Is it really possible to read Shakespeare? No! He is not a book; in reality, a copy of one of his masterpieces is referred to]
    • The world will know that… . [The world doesn’t possess any cognitive abilities that may enable it to understand or hold information. Actually, people will know…. ]
    • He hates the crown. [Does a person really hate a crown?Maybe! But what if it’s used to refer to a person, maybe a monarch]


    What is this literary device called?

    Does “the hands of Clock” have anything to do with “time”? Can the reader decipher what you mean?
    At any rate, it’s the most faithful rendering of your original Farsi sentence.

    You can also try to write a sentence with “sands of time”. Check out its meaning if necessary.

    Anyhow, you’re developing your interlanguage, and may sometimes write some things that are only meaningful to you. It'll be a very dynamic process, and will undergo so many changes as you learn English (or any other languages). The procedures that I’ve introduced to you will really help you (and anyone who can utilize them) in the perplexing process of making the right choice in a second language.


    I wish you and the other members success and happiness.

  8. #18
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    Post Re: Winner and Loser

    And an idea about the sentence:

    In some cases, the sentence, if understood properly, can show deeper levels:

    “Our destiny will be decided by the hands of Clock”.

    In this sentence, “hand” will convey two different meanings:
    • A pointer on a clock, and
    • A sense of power, authority, possession, which shows man’s powerlessness against the passage of time or fate.
    It’s a play on words. What is it called?



    Farewell,

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Winner and Loser

    I had to look up interlanguage. Find a definition of it here: Interlanguage Definition | Definition of Interlanguage at Dictionary.com. (Chester_100 was, no doubt, using the second definition in his post.)

    Taghavi, I can tell that you are learning fast. I can also tell that you are impatient, but don't worry. You have come a long way, and I am sure you will achieve your goal of mastering English.


  10. #20
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    Default Re: Winner and Loser

    Quote Originally Posted by chester_100 View Post
    And an idea about the sentence:
    Quote Originally Posted by chester_100 View Post

    In some cases, the sentence, if understood properly, can show deeper levels:

    “Our destiny will be decided by the hands of Clock”.



    In this sentence, “hand” will convey two different meanings:
    • A pointer on a clock, and
    • A sense of power, authority, possession, which shows man’s powerlessness against the passage of time or fate.
    It’s a play on words. What is it called? polysemy



    Farewell,
    .
    Last edited by RonBee; 24-Dec-2009 at 19:57. Reason: fix quote

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