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  1. #11
    Kondorosi is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    Yes, you are right. I like the third one best. I can't even relate to the others. The object of a preposition must be a noun, or something noun-like.
    That first one has me wondering what new book you are reading.

    Pretty good dancer -- that second guy on Youtube.

    My daughter is home and I am going to see if she can help me diagram better.

    What "dullness" of diagramming?!
    lf
    Hello Frank,

    Where is one prep. complement in my diagrams that is not a noun?

  2. #12
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    "Type" is a noun. "Oldest" is not a noun.
    What you call "prep complement" I think I call an "object of a preposition"
    This difference in terminology is frustrating -- though interesting.
    I think it is causing so much confusion on this website -- at least for an American like me.
    lf

  3. #13
    Kondorosi is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    "Type" is a noun. "Oldest" is not a noun.
    - Can I help you, sir?
    - Yes, please. I would like a good wine.
    - These are all we have. Which would you like?
    - I would like the oldest, please.



    Od = the oldest ≠ noun

    oldest (wine)
    oldest (type)


    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    This difference in terminology is frustrating -- though interesting.
    We can plead ignorance without getting hot under the collar.

    What would happen if we elevated some adjectives into a word group with possible prep. complement status?

    Back to the original sentence:

    The sundial, or sun clock, is one of the oldest type of clock.
    Let's concentrate on the RK base line (without the apposition):

    The sundial is one.
    What follows 'one' in the original sentence are modifiers, embedded [(of the oldest type) of clock)] prepositional phrases. They are modifiers, and it means to me that we (EDIT:) can't drop them without significant loss of meaning. If I look at the Reed-Kellog base line, I can see not only significant, but also total loss. 'The sundial is one.' The huge information flood that hits me on reading this curtailed sentence is simply devastating. Therefore, I am sorely tempted to adopt a different approach to dismantling the NP in question. Let us assume we have an ellipted phrase 'one (clock)', where the head has been wiped away with a view to avoiding word repetition. This would be an example of cataphoric (forward reference) textual ellipsis. If we remove the postmodifiers, the ellipsis theory collapses, because the ellipted phrase loses its verbatim recoverability: the textual environment, from which the ellipted word, clock, may be recovered is no more. I have no choice but to discard the idea of ellipsis too. I hope you have not lost me yet, Frank.

    This is what I meant with the ellipsis problem:

    The sundial, or sun clock, is one (clock) of the oldest type of clock.
    The sundial, or sun clock, is one () of the oldest type of clock. -- one what?
    Is 'one' a proform? Probably.
    With a proform head I have the same problem as with the ellipsis: If I remove the modifiers, it will not be inferable what 'one' refers to. One what?

    The sundial, or sun clock, is one (= clock) of the oldest type of clock.
    However,
    The sundial, or sun clock, is one of the oldest type of clock. -- one =
    In the present moment, this is the only approach I can totally be at one with:
    The sundial is a clock.
    What is left out of the sentence are the apposition and the modifiers.

    EDIT: I think I am wrong. When grammars say by removing the modifiers there is no significant loss, they do not include in the idea the recoverability problem I was talking about.
    There are so many definitions in grammar that I tend not to see the wood for the trees.
    Last edited by Kondorosi; 25-Dec-2009 at 15:57.

  4. #14
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    Wow! Where did you learn to write like that? I will have to read that again (and maybe again). About "oldest" being able to be a noun, I agree. I even thought that I should have corrected myself before you got to it.
    Almost all (maybe all) parts of speech can function as other ones in certain situations.
    By the way, Merry Christmas!
    Frank

  5. #15
    Kondorosi is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    Wow! Where did you learn to write like that? I will have to read that again (and maybe again). About "oldest" being able to be a noun, I agree. I even thought that I should have corrected myself before you got to it.
    Almost all (maybe all) parts of speech can function as other ones in certain situations.
    By the way, Merry Christmas!
    Frank
    Merry Christmas to you too! Did you have your Christmas turkey yet? I am stuffed and can't move a muscle.

    Where did you learn to write like that?
    Harvard. Unfortunatelly, this is only a joke.

    Currently I am reading on genitives. You agree:



    I have always thought that the word in genitive case ('s) always relates to the head of the NP (to dream, or to holiday above). Apparently, the inflected word can also modify the modifier of the head noun.
    Last edited by Kondorosi; 25-Dec-2009 at 15:21.

  6. #16
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    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Can someone help us diagram two sentences?

    The "else's" certainly modifies "someone"
    The indefinite pronouns in English are quite an interesting bunch.
    I don't know if you have yet looked very closely at the chart "Words that MUST be Recognized" which is on my website as an image. <competitivesentencediagrammers.com>.
    The indefinite pronouns are there in the upper left side. They may be combined in quite a few ways, e.g. somebody, nobody, anybody, etc. I think the "else" is just more to be added to the collection and does not actually work like a regular adjective. Check it out.
    If you get that Sister Bernadette book, I think you may find yourself amazed at how simple Reed-Kellogg is. You are wrestling with trying to combine the British Empire with the American frontier -- terms from the first and diagrams from the second.
    lf

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