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  1. #11
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Kondorosi,

    I'm slipping up. Back in your diagram I would consider "talking" as a gerund serving as a direct object to "stop", "doing" as the same for "start". I would put them on standards.

  2. #12
    Kondorosi is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    Kondorosi,

    I'm slipping up. Back in your diagram I would consider "talking" as a gerund serving as a direct object to "stop", "doing" as the same for "start". I would put them on standards.
    First I was thinking the same thing. Not the slipping-up part, but the direct object part. I still think, however, that I am right. Whether I am right in thinking that is a different kettle of fish, though. The way I see it is 'stop' is an aspect verb in 'stop talking' that characterizes the stage of progress of an activity. I drew this comparison:

    1. I stopped talking.
    2. I am talking.,

    and began pondering. 'stopped' in #1 does the same thing as 'am' in #2. Auxiliary. Aspect auxiliary. talking = direct object of 'am'? No! talking = direct object of 'stopped'? I very much would like to think that it is not.
    In grammar there are no facts, only interpretations. What do you think?

  3. #13
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Forms of the verb to be serve to make the "progressive form" of a verb.
    "Am talking" is not the same as "stopped talking". You can say "I am stopping talking". That would be the progressive form of the verb "to stop". You can't say, "I stopped 'amming' talking".

    Also, you can say "I stopped the conversation and started the action" like "stopped talking and started doing". "Talking" and "doing" are gerunds acting as direct objects.

  4. #14
    Kondorosi is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    Forms of the verb to be serve to make the "progressive form" of a verb.
    "Am talking" is not the same as "stopped talking". You can say "I am stopping talking". That would be the progressive form of the verb "to stop". You can't say, "I stopped 'amming' talking".

    Also, you can say "I stopped the conversation and started the action" like "stopped talking and started doing". "Talking" and "doing" are gerunds acting as direct objects.
    'Talking is being stopped.' Yes, it looks like a direct object. However, In 'I stopped talking', 'talking' is more like a verb than a deverbal nominal constituent to me.

    I do not feel comfortable with this comparison:

    I stopped talking.
    I stopped it.

    A direct object, on the other hand, is realized by a noun. The hybrid nature of verbals can be confusing for NNES.

    A reversed dilemma comes with middle verbs:
    This pair of jeans fits me.

    The accusative form and the post-predicate position makes one strongly tempted to treat 'me' as being a direct object and 'fits' as being transitive. But where is the corresponding passive sentence?

    I is fit by this?

    Bottom line: I think you are probably right. Thanks for the comments.

  5. #15
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Maybe not with the jeans example, but someone can be fitted for a position or job (suitable, etc), which is closer is meaning than being fitted for a suit by a tailor. 'Fit' is a bit of a pig of a verb.

  6. #16
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Diagramming Phrasal Verbs?

    Kondorosi,
    It occurred to me that gerunds may seem a little different to you from the way they are to a native English speaker. The use of a present participle as a noun does not occur in any of the other languages I know. It is a bit of a problem for an English speaker trying to learn a foreign language -- sort of like the uniquely English use of the helping verb "do, does, did". Such a speaker has to learn to use the infinitive instead of the gerund -- and to form questions differently,

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