Cross-linguistic Morpheme Analysis

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mmasny

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Wow! Apparently the vowels can occur either before or after the morpheme.
We still have genders in Polish and suffixes have to deal with it too. The genders are usually distinguished by vowels so the suffixes take different vowels in different genders. And that's right, they can appear on both sides of the root.

Yes, because as it seems plan is originally Latin. It might have been borrowed from English though; just guessing!
Such unusual structures sound humorous in Farsi.
Do they? So I think Polish is more like Italian regarding this. We can diminish virtually everything and we do. It does sound humorous sometimes and depends somewhat on who's speaking. For example, there exists a stereotype of an old-fashioned Varsovian who says "pieniążki" instead of "pieniądze" (money) with a sly smile.
As you know very well, linguistic gender became obsolete in Persian long ago, I think in the Middle Persian.
I didn't know that. I'm really interested in your language, mostly because of its exoticness and similarity to the languages I understand. But learning the script was always too big an obstacle for me. But it's never too late while I'm alive :)
 

chester_100

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Do they? So I think Polish is more like Italian regarding this. We can diminish virtually everything and we do. It does sound humorous sometimes and depends somewhat on who's speaking. For example, there exists a stereotype of an old-fashioned Varsovian who says "pieniążki" instead of "pieniądze" (money) with a sly smile.
I see. Of course, by humorous, I meant the structures formed by k; since this structure is used for diminutives, and accordingly for small things, there is always a childish element present that makes the words sound funny. The other morpheme that does the same function and is widely distributed in the language is ch. Does it ring the bell?
-Daftar + ch + e (notebook)
-Ketab + ch + e (small book)

I didn't know that. I'm really interested in your language, mostly because of its exoticness and similarity to the languages I understand. But learning the script was always too big an obstacle for me. But it's never too late while I'm alive
I certainly agree about the script. I admit that sometimes I can't distinguish the morphemes in highly calligraphic works of art. But, on the bright side, the total non-existence of linguistic gender can be encouraging. This method of classifying entities has survived unexceptionally in all the languages I'm slightly familiar with.

Good luck,
Ch
 

mmasny

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And how do you pronounce ch? If it's as in Chester it certainly rings a bell!
A little crayfish is raczek, crayfish - rak. "Cz" is Polish for "ch"
Mak is a papaver flower, and maczek would be a little papaver flower.

But I don't think -cze- is the diminutive morpheme here. It's rather the already mentioned -ek, and the -cz- is just what the root's -k- in rak/mak shifts to. I can be wrong however and maybe it's another similarity that we've just found. I surely associate -cz- with diminutive forms because we do quite often diminish diminutives, and it goes like this:

papier => papier-ek => papierecz-ek (paper, little paper, very little paper).
lacha => las-ka => lasecz-ka (big cane, cane, little cane)
 

chester_100

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Yes, exactly. And that's why Czeck is pronounced /ch e k/.
maczek: I'm getting the sense that cz is an infix here.

Oh, about -cze, I have to say that the e, which is put at the end of the words in the Persian examples, seems to be a peculiar aspect of the language and should have some phonological function. So as you said we should be focused on ch.

Your examples reveal a complicated morphological structure. To show papierecz-ek, we have to use other lexical morphemes like adjectives or adverbs in Farsi: extremely small, very small; mostly like the English translations.

These findings are unbelievably amazing!!! I had no idea!
 
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angle222

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Les enfants atteints de trouble spécifique du langage ont souvent des problemes très importants en morphologie par rapport aux difficultés qu'ils manifestent dans les autres domaines du langage. Un des facteurs qui pourrait jouer un rôle par rapport à ce problème pourrait être la durée brève de beaucoup de morphèmes grammaticaux. lˆobjet de cette étude est d'explorer ce facteur en examinant lˆemploi des articles dans un groupe d'enfants français qui souffrent de ce trouble spécifique du langage. La langue francaise diffère des autres langues étudiées jusqu'à maintenant, en ce sens que les différences de durée entre syllabes accentuées et syllabes non accentuées sont beaucoup plus courtes comme dans le cas des articles.
 

Frank Antonson

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Even though I can read your French, I wonder that you do not write in your native language since English is much more accessible to the members of this forum than French.
 

chester_100

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Les enfants atteints de trouble spécifique du langage ont souvent des problemes très importants en morphologie par rapport aux difficultés qu'ils manifestent dans les autres domaines du langage.

True! That's because the components of language can affect each other. But each of them is acquired or learnt in its own unique way. It has something to do with brain structure (cognitive source).
Of course, it should be noted that in this thread we're more concerned with the description of the structure of words and their possible similarities across languages.
Un des facteurs qui pourrait jouer un rôle par rapport à ce problème pourrait être la durée brève de beaucoup de morphèmes grammaticaux.

Ok. What kind of role does it make? Such morphemes are not great in number, and should not be a serious cause of trouble.

lˆobjet de cette étude est d'explorer ce facteur en examinant lˆemploi des articles dans un groupe d'enfants français qui souffrent de ce trouble spécifique du langage.

You mean they suffered from a special language impairment: aphasia? And the researchers wanted to observe the children's reaction to articles.

La langue francaise diffère des autres langues étudiées jusqu'à maintenant, en ce sens que les différences de durée entre syllabes accentuées et syllabes non accentuées sont beaucoup plus courtes comme dans le cas des articles.

I think you mean, at present, the difference between the studies lies between the length of stressed and unstressed syllables. If I got that right, I have to say it reminds of Broca's aphasia in which agrammatic speech is usually observed.

Thank you. I'd like to talk more with you about morphemes and matters related to them.
By the way, since English is the language used for communication in the website, it would be great if you wrote in English.
Bonne chance,
 

Frank Antonson

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By "les articles" do you mean "le, la, les, un, une"? Was that a stupid question?

Those are called "articles" in English -- the definite and the indefinite.
 

Frank Antonson

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Sorry,knownmall, I haven't read the whole thread.
 

chester_100

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By "les articles" do you mean "le, la, les, un, une"? Was that a stupid question?

Those are called "articles" in English -- the definite and the indefinite.


Actually, the poor patient suffering from the disorder struggles to produce words. Since it's possible to send our messages without function words, the patient's sentences are reduced to ungrammatically incomplete sentences. So les articles should refer to all of them.

-Open the window and pour me some water.
-Open...window...pour ...water.
 

chester_100

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Extent

Sometimes it’s difficult to determine how faithful the equivalents should be in the target language(s). There are many different ways of expressing the same message in another language. However, our strategy in dealing with literary works should be writer-oriented.

According to Catford’s categorization, in such cases a Rank-based method should be employed. Therefore, it can be called: grammatically adapted word-for-word equals.


Ø To be ornot to be, that is the question
Ø Seyn oder nicht seyn, Das ist die Frage
Ø Être ou n'être pas, voilà la question
Ø Boodan ya naboodan,mas’le een ast.


\ Structurally, the French piece is the most different one. While Voilà is a preposition, its equivalents are verbs.
\ Plus, the formation of negatives is more unusual in the language compared to the other systems.
\ Oder, as a conjunction, seems to be a two-syllable word, which is phonologically longer than its equals.
\ The Persian negative structure can be achieved by simply attaching na to the beginning of a verb. Unlike the French example, it should not be viewed as a process of assimilation.
\ Unlike the other systems, English requires an extra element for the formation of infinitives: to + base form
 

Frank Antonson

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The French might not be as smooth, but I believe that one could say, "Être ou n'être pas, c'est la question." In which case the French would be more similar to the English.
 

chester_100

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The French might not be as smooth, but I believe that one could say, 'Être ou n'être pas, c'est la question' In which case the French would be more similar to the English.

Yes, I would suggest that too.
I believe the German one is identical to the English one. At least, there's no pas in the German negative structures.
 

chester_100

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One of the challenges to the study of morphemes across a language is the structure of the borrowed words. It is virtually impossible for a translated morpheme to be meaningful in the target language:

-Pashmina: this is a Persian word that seems to have entered English in the 19th century. As it's crystal-clear, we can't meaningfully separate its morphemes in English. Pashm + ine: wool + made of.

Therefore, Borrowing can be defined as the process of orthographical and phonological adaptation of a foreign word to the requirements of the second language, regardless of the morphological disharmony that the word brings about in the second language.

Is it really possible for a linguist to accept the phenomenon as normal?
 

chester_100

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Diagramming words!!!Yes, we're going to have so much fun.
 

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Frank Antonson

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That looks pretty cool.

What about that famous word "antidisestablishmentarianism"? That's diagrammable isn't it? A collection of prefixes and suffixes.
 

chester_100

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That looks pretty cool.

What about that famous word "antidisestablishmentarianism"? That's diagrammable isn't it? A collection of prefixes and suffixes.

Thank you. That's such an easy case, but that's just too long to be diagramed. I devised another way to represent it. It can be equally acceptable. We'll work on more challenging words later.
At the core of the word is the morpheme to which all the other morphemes are attached.
 

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Trance Freak

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Umm, the French version " Être ou n'être pas, voilà la question" is grammatically wrong.
The correct setence is simply:
Être ou ne pas être, c'est la question.
or
Être ou ne pas être, telle est la question.

Best regards. ^^
 

Frank Antonson

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Thanks, Trance Freak. I should have known better.

But more important ... SO NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU AGAIN!
 

chester_100

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Umm, the French version ' Être ou n'être pas, voilà la question' is grammatically wrong.
The correct setence is simply:
Être ou ne pas être, c'est la question.
or
Être ou ne pas être, telle est la question.

Best regards. ^^

Thank you.
Well, as it seems, this translated version was made available by the Bibliothèque nationale de France. It must have been proofread very carefully.
As I have mentioned, voilà may look strange to non-French speakers, because we don't normally expect a preposition to function that way. But it's perfectly acceptable. It's not wrong.
Maybe voici la question can work here.


-Telle est la question: tel reminds of such. If we accept that tel(le) can function as an indifinite pronoun, then the sentence may be: such is the question.

Good day.
 
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