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  1. #11
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    How do I best explain? In my first example (my copy), the text is indicating that the improv solo is not a piece of music "in the sense that the exact notes are not printed...", indicating to me that there is more than one sense that defines a piece of music. So if you looked at the sheet music for this particular solo, you would find something other than the notes printed. In the case of an improv solo, you find "chord changes"...essentially information that guides the soloist in the right direction, but does not spell out the exact notes to play. Make sense in that example? In the second example (my copy), there is a leap made that I don't think is correct: "Because the solo is not a piece of music...". You see, I think in the first example the author is not claiming that it isn't a piece of music, but rather that it is a piece of music (but that there is more than one sense that defines it. Does that help clear up the confusion? The "original" examples are from two seperate publications. You can see how one quotes the other. The first one I posted (I'll call that author/publication "A") is the original source with its entire quote/idea clearly spelled out. The second one I posted (I'll call that "B") is the one doing the quoting, although it is doing so in an incomplete way without any indication that part of the quote is missing. It is a controversial topic, so I wanted to come up with a non-controversial topic so as to not get distracted by it. However, it does sound obsurd when I put it in the context of music. But maybe that will help with the analysis of it. I am sure I understand what "A" is trying to communicate, and I'm sure I understand what "B" is trying to communicate, but when you look at how "B" quotes "A", I don't think it is communicating in "B" what it was in "A". I think truth in writing is important, and I would like to be able to understand the mechanism in language that gives it its integrity. I am open to any and all suggestions. I am sure there is a way to explain what's going on grammatically.
    Last edited by pharmer; 10-Mar-2010 at 23:15.

  2. #12
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    I tried to p.m. you a long explanation, but it wouldn't let me send it because I have less than 15 posts. Sorry.

  3. #13
    Raymott's Avatar
    Raymott is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Quote Originally Posted by amigos4 View Post
    pharmer, the meaning of your first sentence is unclear to me. How is it possible for an improvised solo to not be considered 'a piece of music'? It would make more sense to me if the sentence contained the word 'not', as in:"...in the sense that the exact notes are not printed in the score..."

    The rest of the paragraph looks fine to me.
    I disagree. It makes more sense without 'not' .

    A: It's not a piece of music in the real sense.
    B: What's the real sense?
    A: The real sense of "piece of music" is that the exact notes are printed in the score.

    You could use 'not' if it were written:
    Though it is not a piece of music, in that the exact notes are not printed in the score, ...



  4. #14
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Good point Raymott. Your point is consistent with how author "A" wrote theirs. They wrote "...in the sense that any formulation of it can be found...". So to match that, it looks like my copy should be "...in the sense that the exact notes are printed...".

    Correct?

  5. #15
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    If they are truly improvising, why would they be looking for notes or phrases in the score- that strikes me as more of a source for a variation than an improvisation.

  6. #16
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    I think that gets into the subject matter, which is a good point and begs the question. If it is a Biblical doctrine, why are they "...desperately looking for Bible texts..". I think author "A" is not trying to say that musicians are searching for notes, but author "B" is using author "A" to support the claim that musicians are searching for notes. I think "A" communicates that even though the improv solo does not fit the one sense of the definition for "a piece of music", it still is a piece of music because it DOES fit the definition of "a piece of music" in other senses...and then author "A" goes on to describe and define those other senses that satisfy the definition.

    Do you think I'm understanding the way the language is intended to commnicate?

  7. #17
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmer View Post
    Copy: (in speaking of the improvisation solo)
    Though it is not a piece of music in the sense that the exact notes are printed in the score, it can be heard to bring out the theme, implicit in the first half of the piece and explicit in the last half. By this we mean that though we cannot hear the theme boldly revealed in the solo at the beginning, once the substance of the solo has been revealed in the latter half, we can hear many implications of it in the first half.
    I assume now, this is an accurate copy of author "A". (If not, please suggest how to improve).

    So what I want to know, is "A" communicating with the language being used that:

    -The improv solo IS a piece of music?
    -The improv solo IS NOT a piece of music?
    -The improv solo IS and IS NOT a piece of music?

  8. #18
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Quote Originally Posted by pharmer View Post
    I assume now, this is an accurate copy of author "A". (If not, please suggest how to improve).

    So what I want to know, is "A" communicating with the language being used that:

    -The improv solo IS a piece of music?
    -The improv solo IS NOT a piece of music?
    -The improv solo IS and IS NOT a piece of music?
    It's ambiguous with or without 'not'. You have a problem with the referent of 'it'.
    You either mean:
    An improvised solo is not a piece of music in the sense that, in 'a piece of music', the exact notes are printed in the score ...
    or:
    An improvised solo is not a piece of music in the sense that, in 'an improvised solo', the exact notes are not printed in the score ...

    From there, you can go on to give the senses in which it is a piece of music, or you can continue along with the theme that it is not a piece of music.

    I would rephrase it to avoid the ambiguity. But I'm not sure about the rules you've imposed upon yourself for the project.

  9. #19
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    It's ambiguous with or without 'not'. You have a problem with the referent of 'it'.
    I would like to do whatever it takes to copy the original as closely as possible, even if I have to change what "it" is.

    Do you think the original author/publication "A" is just as ambiguous?

  10. #20
    pharmer is offline Junior Member
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    Default Re: Newbie needs help

    Okay, tell me if this is a better match. "It" is now referring to a percussion solo.

    Copy of author “A”:
    Though it (percussion solo) is not music in the sense that any melodic line can be found in the solo, it can be heard to bring out a rhythmic line, implicit in the first half of the piece and explicit in the last half. By this we mean that though we cannot speak confidently of the revelation of the rhythmic line at the beginning, once the substance of the rhythm has been revealed in the latter half, we can hear many implications of it in the first half.
    Copy of author “B”:
    Speaking of the percussion solo, this maestro admits: “It is not music in the sense that any melodic line can be found in the solo.” Because the solo is “not music,” percussionists have been desperately looking for definitions—even twisting them—to find support for calling their solo, music.

    Am I getting there?
    Last edited by pharmer; 12-Mar-2010 at 17:55.

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