Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 39
  1. #21
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    I have to defer.

    I do not understand.

    As I have so often said, the American Reed-Kellogg system may be very simplistic, but it serves to analyze any sentence that makes sense.

    As a contribution, I can offer to diagram any sentence in English, German, Portuguese, Spanish, or French. If a sentence in Arabic can be translated into any of these, I can diagram it.

    Frank
    Thatís really a good idea. But the problem is that Arabic doesnít follow the conventional Indo-European syntactic rules. For example, unlike English (or many other languages), the subject of the sentence may be implied, or shown through inflection.
    In translation, we have to adapt it to English rules, so the sentence will undergo a transformation.

  2. #22
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Quote Originally Posted by knowledge seeker View Post
    Hi guys ,
    I am so glad to see your contributions .
    Chester , مساء النور
    Infact , I am so confused ; I am working on my MA thesis and I need to draw trees for a set of sentences written on one of Arabic dialects ,
    e.g : راح الولد المدرسة
    وين الولد ؟
    . I chose Lexical Functional Grammar as a frame work for data parsing .The trees will represent the "C-structure " of that theory .
    Now , I am so confused , I don't know which syntactic rules to adopt for drawing trees ? . As far as I know , phrase structure rules and X-bar theory of generative grammar are not applicable to languages such as Arabic because Arabic has a relatively free word order . It is possible to adopt transformational rules but these rules use movements and movements between constituents is not acceptable according to LFG .
    I wish the point is clear now and I will appreciate your guidance , guys

    Regards .
    Kernel sentences: simple, active, declarative sentences that require the minimum of transformation.

    How to apply X-bar theory to Arabic?

    First of all, I have to admit that this is a very complicated case, because I have never done any research on such linguistic aspects of Arabic.
    Some good understanding of the function of articles can really help us; as far as I know, AL (ال) serves as the definite article in Arabic; for example, we say: Al + shams = the + sun.
    The X-bar theory says syntactic structures like noun phrases without articles create a new category that should be represented by a bar over the name of the category.

    Now, to continue, I need knowledge seeker to give us some brief explanation of the concept of articles in Arabic. I mean, will it sound strange to an Arabic speaker when he encounters, in a sentence, شمس instead of الشمس ?

    من الله توفيق
    Last edited by Red5; 26-Jul-2011 at 13:13. Reason: Removed link

  3. #23
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    I still suspect that Reed-Kellogg could work for Arabic.

    Implied subjects and other parts of sentences should not be a problem. They are represented with "x"'s. Latin also has very much of the syntactic information carried by inflections. Julius Caesar's famous quote "Veni, vidi, vici" can be diagrammed easily as three independent clauses. "I came, I saw, I conquered".

    In your post, Chester, I was very interested to see you write Arabic in Roman letters and left to right. I did not realized that was ever done.

    Frank

  4. #24
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Antonson View Post
    I still suspect that Reed-Kellogg could work for Arabic.

    Implied subjects and other parts of sentences should not be a problem. They are represented with "x"'s. Latin also has very much of the syntactic information carried by inflections. Julius Caesar's famous quote "Veni, vidi, vici" can be diagrammed easily as three independent clauses. "I came, I saw, I conquered".

    In your post, Chester, I was very interested to see you write Arabic in Roman letters and left to right. I did not realized that was ever done.

    Frank
    Oh I see; so after knowledge seeker's reply, we will work on a sentence.Yes, it's possible to turn languages into Roman form through transliteration (phonological adaptaion).

  5. #25
    knowledge seeker Guest

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Chester , Frank thanks for u r replies.
    You are right Chester , drawing trees for a language such as Arabic is really a CHALLENGE for a number of reasons :
    1- Arabic allows more than one word-order . It has SVO with possible VSO & VOS .
    2- It is highly inflectional and derivaltional .
    3- the presence of an elliptic personal pronoun " the implied subject الضمير المستتر " as u stated earlier .
    Since I am doing an academic research , I need to base my work on a solid scientific ground ; on formal syntactic rules . As I said befor PSR & X-theory are not applicable to Arabic . this is what is stated in authentic syntax text -books .Also , TG doesn't work coz LFG is chosen as a frame work . In fact , which letters to use is not a problem . My problem is which rules to adopt for diagraming . I need solid base .

    From my readings , I understand that drawing trees for Arabic is approached by adopting "context free grammer" . Do u have any idea about this kind of grammar ? and how to apply it to Arabic ?
    Regarding ur question about Definiteness , Arabic nouns are of two types :
    1- definite nouns المعرفة e.g الشمس which are marked by the definite article ال,a prefix that is attached to the beginning of a wrod , in terms of use , it is equivelant to the definite article "the " in English .
    2- indifinite nouns نكرة : e.g شمس , these nouns , unlike English a , an , are un marked by any bound or free morphemes . I hope that I answer you .
    Last edited by knowledge seeker; 15-May-2010 at 15:01.

  6. #26
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    I am not sure that I understand where you two could go with this discussion; but, from my standpoint, there seem to be about 25 "parts of sentences" -- just like there are about 8 "parts of speech". Reed-kellogg has a way to show each one of those 25. If some language that is not Indo-European related has some other part of a sentence, I would REALLY like to know about it because that would be a mind-opener. It could say something about the human mind.
    Matters like tense, person, number, case, and gender are not necessarily parts of syntax. From what I have seen of other diagramming systems, they include information about those. The result is that the diagrams become very detailed and intricate.
    Morphology and syntax do not have to be included within the same diagram.
    I think it might be of use if someone reading this, who is a native speaker of an un-inflected language (say, Chinese), would give us their (his/her) input.
    Frank

  7. #27
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    I believe Frank has brought up some good ideas:
    1. Morphological and lexical complexities will not be nesseceraily problematic for diagramming a sentence. (refer to his Latin example).
    2. We have to break a sentence into its meaningful componential elements (that are usually among the universals), no matter how different they are from one language to another.
    Last edited by chester_100; 16-May-2010 at 10:22.

  8. #28
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Quote Originally Posted by knowledge seeker View Post
    2- indifinite nouns نكرة : e.g شمس , these nouns , unlike English a , an , are un marked by any bound or free morphemes . I hope that I answer you .
    About the context-free grammar: I'm familiar with phrase structure rules and Transformational grammar.
    I think we have to use them here. In your paper, you can simply state the problem this way:


    -Due to the nature of the language under investigation, an adaptable approach had to be selected which may be different from the popular theories in certain ways. The approach, being descriptive and situation-based, attempts to represent the syntax as it is in Arabic.-
    So let's take a look at a rule:


    -NP ---> Art + N (English)
    -NP ---> (Art) + N (Arabic)
    The above formula for Arabic simply solves the problem. So even if the noun is infinite, you can still represent it.

  9. #29
    chester_100's Avatar
    chester_100 is offline Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • Persian
      • Home Country:
      • Iran
      • Current Location:
      • Iran
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    Let's try this. Here is a kernel sentence:
    اَنت افضل مغنيه في المدرسه : Arabic
    English : You are the best singer in the school.

    Note:
    1. I not sure about the verb in the Arabic sentence. I suppose it's hiddenالمستتر.
    2. مغنيه
    seems to be a feminine noun


    p>
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Arabic.JPG  

  10. #30
    Frank Antonson's Avatar
    Frank Antonson is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • United States
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    1,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: Drawing trees for Arabic sentences

    In case it is of any use or interest...



Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The sentences above/below are correct
    By user_gary in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-Jun-2009, 08:12
  2. passive sentences
    By margret in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-Jun-2007, 20:35
  3. Are sentences correct?
    By kohyoongliat in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 29-May-2007, 10:41
  4. coordinated sentences
    By rezaa in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-May-2007, 10:45
  5. What are loose sentences? Periodic sentences?
    By RonBee in forum General Language Discussions
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-Dec-2003, 00:13

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •