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  1. #1
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    Cool slight difference in meaing?

    1) The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks
    2) The rules provided here are found in traditional handbooks

    What affect a writer's choice in deciding which to use?
    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Steven D's Avatar
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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    Quote Originally Posted by peteryoung
    1) The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks
    2) The rules provided here are found in traditional handbooks

    What affect a writer's choice in deciding which to use?
    Thanks!
    1. They're the very same rules.

    2. You can find them in traditional handbooks as well.

    That's the effect.

    What a coincidence! http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...l+handbooks%22

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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    Quote Originally Posted by peteryoung
    1) The rules provided here are those found in traditional handbooks
    2) The rules provided here are found in traditional handbooks

    What affect a writer's choice in deciding which to use?
    Thanks!
    Symmetry and redundancy:

    The rules that are provided are the rules that are found in traditional handbooks.

    [1] 'that are' is omitted on both sides of the equation (remember that 'are' is a linking verb:

    The rules that are provided = the rules that are found in traditional handbooks. => The rules provided = the rules found in traditional handbooks.

    [2] 'the rules' is redundant, so the second one is replaced by a nominal demonstrative, referring back to the first 'the rules:

    The rules provided = the rules found in traditional handbooks.
    => The rules provided = those found in traditional handbooks.

    [3] Both 'the rules' and 'those' function as subjects, and since they are co-related, one of the two is omitted. The second one is omitted:

    The rules provided = found in traditional handbooks.

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    Talking Re: slight difference in meaing?

    A million thanks X-Mode.
    That is just where I found this quote. Are you one of its authors?

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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    I'm extremly thankful, Casiopea.

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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    You're most welcome, Peter.

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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    Quote Originally Posted by peteryoung
    A million thanks X-Mode.
    That is just where I found this quote. Are you one of its authors?

    No, I just thought maybe it would out there somewhere.


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    Steven D's Avatar
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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    Symmetry and redundancy:

    [2] 'the rules' is redundant, so the second one is replaced by a nominal demonstrative, referring back to the first 'the rules:

    The rules provided = the rules found in traditional handbooks.
    => The rules provided = those found in traditional handbooks.

    [3] Both 'the rules' and 'those' function as subjects, and since they are co-related, one of the two is omitted. The second one is omitted:

    The rules provided = found in traditional handbooks.
    That's very clear. Thank you. Yes, "those" replaces "rules", but I wouldn't have thought of taking note of that unless asked about it specifically.

    Could you give us your opinion, please? Do you think the writer purposely left in "those" for some reason when he/she could have left it out? The second subject could've been omitted, but it wasn't. Do you think the writer was aware of what he/she was doing when he/she wrote the sentence? Maybe it was something to do with the form of expression? Or is this really just of no matter, and the writer probably wasn't aware?



    I, somehow, feel that leaving in "those" sounds like a stronger statement. It might almost be like saying "They really are the ones found in traditional handbooks."

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    Steven D's Avatar
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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    [QUOTE=Casiopea]Symmetry and redundancy:

    The rules that are provided are the rules that are found in traditional handbooks.

    [1] 'that are' is omitted on both sides of the equation (remember that 'are' is a linking verb:

    QUOTE]

    Hi Casio,

    I really like how you explained this. Can you answer a related question about a grammar rule, please?

    By leaving out "that are" are we reducing an adjective clause to a noun phrase? I know this can often be done with a form of the verb "be" in adjective clauses. Is that something else that's going on here as far as the grammar goes?

    The rules that are provided - clause

    The rules provided - phrase

    example: We have to talk to the guy who is sitting at that desk.

    We have to talk to the guy sitting at that desk.

    "the guy who is sitting at that desk" - clause

    "the guy sitting at that desk" - Leave out "who is" and it becomes a phrase.

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    Default Re: slight difference in meaing?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Mode
    Do you think the writer purposely left in "those" for some reason . . .?
    Yes, I do. And I agree with your last statement. 'those' expresses this: The rules provided aren't just any rules, but the exact rules found in traditional texts.

    The second subject could've been omitted, but it wasn't. Do you think the writer was aware of what he/she was doing when he/she wrote the sentence?
    'aware'? Gee, that's impossible for me to determine, sorry. It could have been a template the writer heard and then adopted in her/his own writing or it could have been something s/he knew would make the sentence stronger. Who knows. . .

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