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  1. #1
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    Default say/says, play/plays

    Anything wrong in these sentences?

    1. I suggested that my friend play(?) with us.
    2. To hear my friend say(?) that,(?) was unusual.

    What form of "play" and "say" I am using here?

    Thank you

  2. #2
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by ndexter View Post
    Anything wrong in these sentences?

    1. I suggested that my friend play(?) with us.
    2. To hear my friend say(?) that,(?) was unusual.

    What form of "play" and "say" I am using here?

    Thank you
    ********** NOT A TEACHER **********

    Hello.

    (1) I think that the answers may be:

    (a) I suggested that my friend play (subjunctive).

    (i) The teacher suggests that Mona study more.

    (b) To hear my friend say that was unusual. The full sentence

    is To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.

    (i) English speakers have decided that after certain verbs such as

    hear, they drop the to.

    THANK YOU

  3. #3
    euncu's Avatar
    euncu is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.
    Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

    Thanks for your reply in advance.

  4. #4
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by euncu View Post
    Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

    Thanks for your reply in advance.
    *********** NOT A TEACHER **********

    Hello.

    To the best of my knowledge, I think that people would say:

    To hear my friend [to] say that was unusual.

    Hearing my friend [to] say that was unusual.

    I personally am not comfortable with:

    Having heard my friend [to] say that was unusual.

    I do not know grammar well enough to explain why.

    Maybe it is "good" English.

    I do not want to give out any misleading ideas, so let's

    see what the language professionals say.

    THANK YOU

  5. #5
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by euncu View Post
    Considering that that was unusual, why does the sentence above not start with "Having heard..." ?

    Thanks for your reply in advance.
    ********** NOT A TEACHER **********

    Hello, Enucu.

    (1) I am disappointed that a language professional has not yet

    answered your excellent question.

    (2) I have thought about it, and I may ( a big may) have an answer why

    Having heard might not be appropriate for that sentence.

    (3) To hear (an infinitive) and Hearing (a gerund) are used as nouns

    in that sentence and serve as the subject.

    For example:

    To know him (subject) + is (linking verb) + to love him (complement).

    Eating ice cream (subject) + is + more fun than eating vegetables.

    (4) But I think (only my opinion) Having heard is the present perfect participle of

    the verb hear, and I believe that participles act as adjectives -- not

    nouns. Therefore, it cannot be the subject of the original poster's

    sentence. As I understand it, a participle has to be attached to some

    (pro)noun.

    Thus, maybe (maybe?!!!) this might work:

    Having heard him [to] say that, I decided not to have any more

    business dealings with him.

    Maybe that is the same as:

    After I had heard him [to] say that, I decided ....

    THANK YOU

  6. #6
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    - all except the "[to]" in the last two examples, which may have been acceptable once but isn't now.

    b

  7. #7
    BobK's Avatar
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Incidentally - re earlier discussion: in my experience learning languages most of which have an implicit 'to...' in their infinitive, I just said 'infinitive' for, e.g., 'to talk'. Subsequently - since my CELTA - I use the terms 'to-infinitive' and 'bare infinitive', as do most other people in the ELT world.

    b

  8. #8
    TheParser is offline Key Member
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    [QUOTE=BobK;634535] - all except the "[to]" in the last two examples, which may have been acceptable once but isn't now.

    ********** NOT A TEACHER **********

    Hello, Mr. K.

    (1) I put to in brackets because I wanted to show it was part of a

    deleted infinitive after such verbs as hear.

    (2) I should have emphasized to learners -- as you did -- that it is

    definitely not used nowadays.

    (3) Sorry if I misled anyone.

    THANK YOU

  9. #9
    euncu's Avatar
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    (3) To hear (an infinitive) and Hearing (a gerund) are used as nouns

    in that sentence and serve as the subject.
    Now it made sense.
    Thank you very much for your elaborate reply.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: say/says, play/plays

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    ********** NOT A TEACHER **********

    Hello.

    (1) I think that the answers may be:

    (a) I suggested that my friend play (subjunctive).

    (i) The teacher suggests that Mona study more.

    (b) To hear my friend say that was unusual. The full sentence

    is To hear my friend to say [infinitive] that was unusual.

    (i) English speakers have decided that after certain verbs such as

    hear, they drop the to.

    THANK YOU
    Thank you, TheParser, for all your answers.

    When you said "subjunctive", did you mean missing "would"?

    I suggested that my friend (would) play.
    The teacher suggests that Mona (will, would) study more.

    Thank you.

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