[General] Fluency in English

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birdeen's call

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Oh, If I become from these hardy ones, No one will believe that I didn't go there or my mother is from there :-D
If you want to be like that, you need to put a lot of effort into it. It's not an easy task and it'll take you some time. There's plenty of material on the internet so you can take advantage from that. And try to make it fun, because otherwise you'll quickly get tired and bored.
 

Ahmad Safwat

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If you want to be like that, you need to put a lot of effort into it. It's not an easy task and it'll take you some time. There's plenty of material on the internet so you can take advantage from that. And try to make it fun, because otherwise you'll quickly get tired and bored.

Thanks for the expensive advice, I know it will be a hard task as if I were a spy:lol: I always try to make it fun in studying English, I tried that in French and failed and in the scientific subjects and failed, These stuffs don't joke except English lol
 

philadelphia

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Concerning Tdol's post, I've never bumped into someone who's got a native level in any language without going abroad. If so, it could certainly take a whole life for her/him to reach it.

Thanks for the expensive advice, I know it will be a hard task as if I were a spy:lol: I always try to make it fun in studying English, I tried that in French and failed and in the scientific subjects and failed, These stuffs don't joke except English lol

I don't find formal/school French funny either, though it's totes the other way around regarding our slang and colloquial stuff. You'd just need to come over to appreciate it. :)
 
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Ahmad Safwat

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I don't find formal/school French funny either, though it's totes the other way around regarding our slang and colloquial stuff. You'd just need to come over to appreciate it. :)

I adore speaking French because I feel it's so sweet and smoth and respectable especially when a woman talks to her lover or a waiter talks to his clients or recieptionist or a diplomatic or general affairs man :-D

But unfortunately I couldn't find French rules and grammer and some writing palatable to me for the whole two years I've studied at the school, I prefered the language i used to for a lot of years than enduring two :-? .

Regards to you and all French people :)
 

Ahmad Safwat

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philadelphia, Our French teacher said that the people who live in the south in France speak a language is MUCH different to the north and their French differs a lot for the puplic and formal one, He couldn't understand them . Is that right?
 

Abstract Idea

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Concerning Tdol's post, I've never bumped into someone who's got a native level in any language without going abroad. If so, it could certainly take a whole life for her/him to reach it.

Of course it would be much better if you could travel abroad. But since that is not always possible there are individuals who manage to learn foreign languages by other methods besides traveling.

Anyway (i) you have to define exactly what you mean by a "native level in a language," and (ii) the fact that you have never bumped into someone with a specific quality does not mean he or she does not exist.
 
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philadelphia

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philadelphia, Our French teacher said that the people who live in the south in France speak a language is MUCH different to the north and their French differs a lot for the puplic and formal one, He couldn't understand them . Is that right?

Right enough. Our formal French is quite the same. On the other hand, once we stand in the street, the slang is defs more often used and may even differ from county to county, so I can perfectly understand he didn't get them all. However, if he'd stayed for a while he'd've got used to this. Practice makes perfect.
 
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philadelphia

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Of course it would be much better if you could travel abroad. But since that is not always possible there are individuals who manage to learn foreign languages by other methods besides traveling.

Anyway (i) you have do define exactly what you mean by a "native level in a language," and (ii) the fact that you have never bumped into someone with a specific quality does not mean he or she does not exist.

Agreed, I've never said the contrary though. Hanging at a native level for a foreigner should equal the level of an average native speaker of English (ie level C2).
 

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Concerning Tdol's post, I've never bumped into someone who's got a native level in any language without going abroad. If so, it could certainly take a whole life for her/him to reach it.

When I went to live in Portugal many years ago, I met a guy who I assumed was English- perfect English accent, everything was right. After a few hours, he said something about Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs/Dwarves (which he pronounced in a way that would rhyme with halves, and suddenly I realised he wasn't a native speaker, but he had completely fooled me all afternoon until then and he'd never visted an English-speaking country and was largely self-taught.

I thought it was a truly astonishing achievement and have met one other who had done it since then, though the first one did it in pre-internet days when access to spoken texts would have been much harder, so he must have done it by ear and speaking to people he met.
 

Tdol

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Thanks for the expensive advice

It doesn't have to be expensive- I think a lot about acquiring the ability to reproduce foreign sounds is about losing inhibitions and being prepared to experiment and trying to make sound in ways that are unfamiliar to us. Also, it doesn't have to be perfect. When I was living in Cambodia, they can use a sound like the ng we have in English after vowels (sang) at the beginning of words. I tried and tried to get it right, but I could not reproduce it well. At least by trying, you may get somewhere near to unfamiliar sounds, which is an improvement.

You can strive for perfection, but it's a good idea to be prepared to settle for fluency, or even comprehension. One of the great writers of English literature, Joseph Conrad, was Polish and English was his third language- to become a major writer in your third language, and one he didn't learn until were well into his adult years, is extraordinary. Few can do it in their first language, but we needn't feel we have failed if we can't emulate him. And he spoke English with a foreign accent. ;-)
 
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adojaijim

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Many Taiwanese students go to America's language schools to learn English. However, they often choose language centers located in cities with Chinatowns or Asian districts. So the problem occurs. The main reason to learn a language in a country using that language is hoping that the environment would stimulate the learning process. But choosing a place where a lot people speak your native language? You wouldn't even bother to practice. You would hang out with friends from your own country instead of blending into locals. I recommend Chinese learners not choose places on the coasts of America. Seattle, NY, CA... to much Chinese going on there!!! Go to San Antonio, and you could probably learn Spanish too. HA!
 

birdeen's call

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Many Taiwanese students go to America's language schools to learn English. However, they often choose language centers located in cities with Chinatowns or Asian districts. So the problem occurs. The main reason to learn a language in a country using that language is hoping that the environment would stimulate the learning process. But choosing a place where a lot people speak your native language? You wouldn't even bother to practice. You would hang out with friends from your own country instead of blending into locals. I recommend Chinese learners not choose places on the coasts of America. Seattle, NY, CA... to much Chinese going on there!!! Go to San Antonio, and you could probably learn Spanish too. HA!
That's exactly it. Right after the Polish accession to the EU, many Poles went to Great Britain to work there. (Less people go these days, as Poland didn't have so much trouble with the recent recession and it's not so profitable to go abroad anymore.) And I know of cases of whole families who have lived there for years and can barely communicate in English! They just do their physical jobs and talk to Poles only...
 

Ahmad Safwat

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It doesn't have to be expensive- I think a lot about acquiring the ability to reproduce foreign sounds is about losing inhibitions and being prepared to experiment and trying to make sound in ways that are unfamiliar to us. Also, it doesn't have to be perfect. When I was living in Cambodia, they can use a sound like the ng we have in English after vowels (sang) at the beginning of words. I tried and tried to get it right, but I could not reproduce it well. At least by trying, you may get somewhere near to unfamiliar sounds, which is an improvement.

You can strive for perfection, but it's a good idea to be prepared to settle for fluency, or even comprehension. One of the great writers of English literature, Joseph Conrad, was Polish and English was his third language- to become a major writer in your third language, and one he didn't learn until were well into his adult years, is extraordinary. Few can do it in their first language, but we needn't feel we have failed if we can't emulate him. And he spoke English with a foreign accent. ;-)

I tried to be better usually in English and French I succeeded in English more than French(I know you are happy lol), Not all people are genius like Conrad ;-) and I prefer to be fluent in one languae than to be normal in two, My aunt and her husband went to America for 7 years and they were comfort there a lot in speaking English with the direct contact with the citizens, you surely feel like you are a part of that community (you live in Japan so you must feel that) After all these efforts if I have been aways for a while from practicing any language I would forget a lot, and the other disappointing thin as I mentioned before the people who are in America from about 2 decades and still face problems!.
 

Ahmad Safwat

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Many Taiwanese students go to America's language schools to learn English. However, they often choose language centers located in cities with Chinatowns or Asian districts. So the problem occurs. The main reason to learn a language in a country using that language is hoping that the environment would stimulate the learning process. But choosing a place where a lot people speak your native language? You wouldn't even bother to practice. You would hang out with friends from your own country instead of blending into locals. I recommend Chinese learners not choose places on the coasts of America. Seattle, NY, CA... to much Chinese going on there!!! Go to San Antonio, and you could probably learn Spanish too. HA!

Yes, you are right when you suggested living with my natives but I am not a chinese so living with them would make it harder :lol:
 

Ahmad Safwat

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Let me say that we have to know that the language is a means for communication and it's not a goal at itself, so I loved English because it's the most common language all over the world and the first second language as I know for most countries and fortunately it's the easiest one, all these reasons encouraged me to enjoy it and also it will be very helpful If I especialized in a scientific field or travelled and worked in USA or UK or maybe even in Europe, so these efforts are not only for enjoying or self-satisfication but it's necessary for the practical modern life.

Don't advice me to exert efforts for efforts, Studing advices are enough lol.
 

AryanK

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It takes time and effort to master any foreign language. Of course it greatly helps if you're living in a country where people speak that language (English, in this case). However, fluency isn't something you can achieve in a short time.

It also depends on your native language. Of course it's easier for a Spanish to learn English, than for a Chinese to learn it. If your language falls in the same group as English (Indo European, I suppose), then you're lucky. :)
 

Ahmad Safwat

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It takes time and effort to master any foreign language. Of course it greatly helps if you're living in a country where people speak that language (English, in this case). However, fluency isn't something you can achieve in a short time.

It also depends on your native language. Of course it's easier for a Spanish to learn English, than for a Chinese to learn it. If your language falls in the same group as English (Indo European, I suppose), then you're lucky. :)

I totally agree with you, you are Iranian and live now in Finland and I think your native language isn't similar to the Finnish language.

But my native langauge is Arabic although I am lucky :lol:
 

birdeen's call

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Let me say that we have to know that the language is a means for communication and it's not a goal at itself, so I loved English because it's the most common language all over the world and the first second language as I know for most countries and fortunately it's the easiest one, all these reasons encouraged me to enjoy it and also it will be very helpful If I especialized in a scientific field or travelled and worked in USA or UK or maybe even in Europe, so these efforts are not only for enjoying or self-satisfication but it's necessary for the practical modern life.

Don't advice me to exert efforts for efforts, Studing advices are enough lol.
If you understand language as a means of communication only and not a goal itself, I doubt if you're going to master it. That's exactly what most people do - it's enough for them to communicate, so they don't feel the need of learning nuances and never achieve proficiency.

On the other hand, people interested in the language itself, compelled by its beauty or by ambition, are more likely do get a near-native level in a foreign language. That's the case of Conrad actually.

I'm not saying it's worse to consider language a way of communicating. It's a personal thing.
 

Ahmad Safwat

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If you understand language as a means of communication only and not a goal itself, I doubt if you're going to master it. That's exactly what most people do - it's enough for them to communicate, so they don't feel the need of learning nuances and never achieve proficiency.

On the other hand, people interested in the language itself, compelled by its beauty or by ambition, are more likely do get a near-native level in a foreign language. That's the case of Conrad actually.

I'm not saying it's worse to consider language a way of communicating. It's a personal thing.

Dear birdeen's call, We know that every thing in life has a goal behind it to be more useful and effective in our lives, So even studying English for fun and enjoyment is a goal per se, But I find this goal is not encouraging for learning continuance and Soon we become busy in life concerns and become lazy a lot.

But If took the matter seriously as saying to myself that I can't travel to a foreign country and work there unless I am fluent in English or I couldn't marry from there or become comfortable unless I am excellent in that language.

The language as we agreed or diagreed is a mean of communicating, but it's learning need comes when we determine the aim of learning it.
That's my opinion.
Regards.
 

birdeen's call

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Dear birdeen's call, We know that every thing in life has a goal behind it to be more useful and effective in our lives, So even studying English for fun and enjoyment is a goal per se, But I find this goal is not encouraging for learning continuance and Soon we become busy in life concerns and become lazy a lot.

But If took the matter seriously as saying to myself that I can't travel to a foreign country and work there unless I am fluent in English or I couldn't marry from there or become comfortable unless I am excellent in that language.

The language as we agreed or diagreed is a mean of communicating, but it's learning need comes when we determine the aim of learning it.
That's my opinion.
Regards.
I agree with your opinion. It's indeed not good for your learning if you're overly concerned about making mistakes.

I like to compare it to the game of chess. Do you play chess? Some chess players can't take a loss. It just makes them so angry and ashamed that they don't want to play or even look at the game any more. It makes getting better difficult for them. Shame and anger don't serve them well. It happens to every player sometimes probably, but if it happens too often, it becomes a serious disadvantage. (Not always though - but let's not talk about geniuses.)

Other players, who are ambitous too, can overcome their shame and instead of being emotional about it, try to analyze their mistakes coldly, which gives them an advantage in the next games.

Both of them treat chess as a goal itself but, as ot turns out, it's not enough. It's similar with languages - shame doesn't help at all. But interest and ambition do help a lot.

Also, one can eventually get to control their shame about making mistakes, and that's one of the points at which native speakers' help is a nice thing to have. When you must communicate, you don't have time to be ashamed. I know about some people who got rid of they linguistical shame this way.
 
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