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  1. #11
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinoceronte View Post
    Not of Slavic ones.
    That's generally what I don't like about the things you're saying. You seem to want English to fit your (our) Slavic understanding of grammar. You say something is necessary - I say no it isn't. Look at these people. They're doing perfectly well with what you call ungrammatical usage. The times, they are a-changing and the old good PIE is gone.

    Also, I'd agree that we don't have as many syntactical ambiguities in Slavic languages as the English language. It's only an impression though, I don't have any reliable data about that. Do you? It's certainly not true that we don't have any ambiguities at all. Doing this kind of comparative research could be very interesting but difficult too.
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 15-Oct-2010 at 14:35.

  2. #12
    Raymott's Avatar
    Raymott is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinoceronte View Post
    (continued)

    11. “It has been hot for two hours” is Present Perfect tense, and thus, Present Perfect can render the ongoing actions”
    No. This is not Present Perfect, although it looks like one. It’s Present Perfect Continuous, where the gerund of the lexical verb “to be” was omitted for “euphony reasons”. The complete sentence should look: “It has been being hot for two hours”. If you don’t like the combination “been being” (which does not speak well for your grammar knowledge, by the way), omit it, but don’t claim that the tense has changed as well. It hasn’t..
    I partly agree with the sentiment of this one.
    It has been hot; he has been naughty.
    If the second means "He has been being naughty", then the first means "It has been being hot".
    They aren't expressed in the continuous tense; but the meaning is generally continuous in both.
    If the meaning is not continuous, you could have the following sensible conversation:
    A: Phew. It's been hot today!
    B: When?
    A: Between 2.30 and 3pm.

    But even the simple past tense implies some degree of continuity with these sentences. "It was hot today" generally doesn't mean that at one time today it became hot for a moment then wasn't again.
    The problem with the way this point is expressed (and perhaps others - I haven't bothered reading them all) is that the tense is the way a sentence is written - not what it means.
    "I go to London tomorrow" is in the present tense. "I'm going to London tomorrow" is in the present progressive.
    Along with "I will go to London tomorrow", they all have future meaning, but they're not all in the "future tense".
    Last edited by Raymott; 15-Oct-2010 at 14:19.

  3. #13
    Raymott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullia View Post
    Perhaps some form of cross-media campaign, including of course viral marketing, to raise awareness of the passive is required?
    What is wanted by us?
    The passive!
    When is it wanted?
    Now!

  4. #14
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullia View Post
    Sacrilege! Clearly that is the single most important factor in judging *anyone* on *any* matter, not just their English proficiency or lack thereof? I feel you should leave this board at once, hanging your head in shame.


    P.S. I'm neither old nor a fuddy-duddy and still manage to be an enthusiastic advocate for the Passive .

    I grovel.
    My head has been being hung in shame since I read your remark.
    I suspect that if you had been an old-fashioned dictator and I one of your subjects I would have been being hanged by now.

  5. #15
    Tullia's Avatar
    Tullia is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I grovel.
    My head has been being hung in shame since I read your remark.
    I suspect that if you had been an old-fashioned dictator and I one of your subjects I would have been being hanged by now.
    You would have been drawn, and possibly quartered also.

    Raymott, announcements have been sent to all the major national newspapers, in which our coming campaign will be announced.
    It has been suggested by my friend that a tune for your little ditty should be composed in order that it might be released into the charts and an attempt at the Christmas Number 1 spot be made.

  6. #16
    5jj's Avatar
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    It is thought by me that the whole UsingEnglish site should be shut down on the grounds that too many active subversives are being harboured there. A new PassivesBeingUsed site could be set up for those by whom the use of the divine form is understood.

    Or perhaps the present site should be retained so that inferior beings can be assisted towards the light. A beginning has been made by me on this task. It was noted that even people by whom better should be known have been seduced into the paths of activism: improvements on postings are noted below, and heed should be taken by:

    BobK: Everything you're told should not be believed.

    Birdeen’s’ call: That's generally what is disliked about the things being said by you. It seems (not passive, but at least it’s impersonal – ed) that a situation is desired by you: that English is fitted into (our) Slavonic understanding of grammar . etc

    Raymott: If "He has been being naughty" is meant by the second, "It has been being hot" is meant by the first. etc.

    Tullia: It is felt that the board should be left by you, your head (being)* hung in shame.

    And even Tdol: It is thought the passive has been unfairly victimised and vilified.

    * An uncertainty has been encountered here. If the being is omitted, is it the case that ‘the gerund for the lexical verb "to be" has been decided to be allowed to be omitted’ ?

  7. #17
    Tullia's Avatar
    Tullia is offline Senior Member
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Tullia: It is felt that the board should be left by you, your head (being)* hung in shame.
    Apologies are made by me; they are presented with the fervent hope that they will be accepted by you, and all other people by whom this board is frequented.

    Seppuku is being considered.

  8. #18
    Rinoceronte is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    That's generally what I don't like about the things you're saying. You seem to want English to fit your (our) Slavic understanding of grammar. You say something is necessary - I say no it isn't. Look at these people. They're doing perfectly well with what you call ungrammatical usage. The times, they are a-changing and the old good PIE is gone.

    Also, I'd agree that we don't have as many syntactical ambiguities in Slavic languages as the English language. It's only an impression though, I don't have any reliable data about that. Do you? It's certainly not true that we don't have any ambiguities at all. Doing this kind of comparative research could be very interesting but difficult too.
    You are right. Those guys are doing perfectly well (if we don't take into consideration that they have been considering renaming the English tenses). It's us who are not doing well being ordered not to use the imperfect-aspect-native verbs in imperfect tenses.

    Reliable data? My Slavic languages have such a strict grammar system that even for the least literal person it's very difficult to compose a phrase wrongly or ambiguously, no matter what tense, mood or voice it is. I suspect Polish boasts as a developed structure. But if you can convince me to the contrary, be my guest.

  9. #19
    Rinoceronte is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    A: Phew. It's been hot today!
    B: When?
    A: Between 2.30 and 3pm.
    You can't say so. If "it's been hot" in your dialogue is a pure Present Perfect, then you can't answer "between...", since it's continuity, which is not for perfect tenses. If "it's been hot" is a reduced version of Present Perfect Progressive - "It's been (being) hot", then you can't mention the finish time of 3 pm, since Present Perfect Progressive describes an action which is not over yet, which is still lasting.

  10. #20
    Rinoceronte is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Popular Misinterpretations & Equivocations with Disproofs (part II)

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    But even the simple past tense implies some degree of continuity with these sentences. "It was hot today" generally doesn't mean that at one time today it became hot for a moment then wasn't again.
    The problem with the way this point is expressed (and perhaps others - I haven't bothered reading them all) is that the tense is the way a sentence is written - not what it means.
    "I go to London tomorrow" is in the present tense. "I'm going to London tomorrow" is in the present progressive.
    Along with "I will go to London tomorrow", they all have future meaning, but they're not all in the "future tense".
    Of course simple tense imply great deal of continuity, since simple tenses include both aspects: perfect (completed action) and imperfect (continuity).

    If someone started to use the tense for the purposes it was not designed for, how does it make the whole system adapt to it?
    Last edited by Rinoceronte; 15-Oct-2010 at 21:30.

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