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  1. #1
    jdonovan is offline Newbie
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    Lightbulb Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    I have an advanced student who has recently asked me about the differences between the following.

    Do you think Im shy? and
    Do you think me shy?

    as well as

    Can you ask him to give me the book?
    Can you ask that he give me the book?

    I explained to her that there is no difference at all in the meaning of the phrases and that in each case the second phrase would be more formal and less common. However, she, as any good, inquisitive student, proceded to ask me if there is a term for changing of the words or grammatical structures used, and if the same rules apply to both.

    Im at a loss. What do I tell her? Is there a name for these examples that I could google for information or exercises to help? She is reallly fascinated with any grammar rules that allow her to say the same thing but in a much more intelligent way. I would love to help her with that.

    Thanks in advance.

  2. #2
    BobK's Avatar
    BobK is offline Harmless drudge
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    Default Re: Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdonovan View Post
    I have an advanced student who has recently asked me about the differences between the following.

    Do you think Im shy? and
    Do you think me shy?

    as well as

    Can you ask him to give me the book?
    Can you ask that he give me the book?

    I explained to her that there is no difference at all in the meaning of the phrases and that in each case the second phrase would be more formal and less common. However, she, as any good, inquisitive student, proceded to ask me if there is a term for changing of the words or grammatical structures used, and if the same rules apply to both.

    Im at a loss. What do I tell her? Is there a name for these examples that I could google for information or exercises to help? She is reallly fascinated with any grammar rules that allow her to say the same thing but in a much more intelligent way. I would love to help her with that.

    Thanks in advance.
    I don't see that there is any link between the two pairs of sentences, apart from the one you've identified. The first pair has a subordinate clause '[that] I'm shy' and the second has a different meaning of think - 'form an opinion of something' with 'shy' as an object complement. (I'm not great at this formal grammar stuff though, so I'm open to correction )

    In the second pair, the subordinate clause starting with 'that' uses a subjunctive. But in the first of the pair 'give' takes two objects '[to] me' and 'the book'. Both sentences in the second pair have two objects that look a bit similar; but 'me' is an indirect object, and in the first pair the 'me' is a direct object.

    So in short I don't see any similar rules at work. It's late though, and I'm not at my best (There should be a smiley for :zzz:)

    b

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdonovan View Post
    I have an advanced student who has recently asked me about the differences between the following.

    Do you think Im shy? and
    Do you think me shy?

    as well as

    Can you ask him to give me the book?
    Can you ask that he give me the book?

    I explained to her that there is no difference at all in the meaning of the phrases and that in each case the second phrase would be more formal and less common. However, she, as any good, inquisitive student, proceded to ask me if there is a term for changing of the words or grammatical structures used, and if the same rules apply to both.

    Im at a loss. What do I tell her? Is there a name for these examples that I could google for information or exercises to help? She is reallly fascinated with any grammar rules that allow her to say the same thing but in a much more intelligent way. I would love to help her with that.

    Thanks in advance.
    Not a teacher.
    " Can you ask that he gives me the book?" sounds wrong to me.
    " Can you ask him about the book ( that I need to get back..)?"
    " Can you ask him if he could give me the book?"
    " Can you ask to get the book back from him?"
    " Can you ask(him) whether he should give me the book?"
    " Have you asked him about that ( giving me the book)?"
    " Ask him that I need the book !"
    Never heard " ask+that-clause".
    Open correction, pls !

  4. #4
    bhaisahab's Avatar
    bhaisahab is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenkk2 View Post
    Not a teacher.
    " Can you ask that he gives me the book?" sounds wrong to me.
    " Can you ask him about the book ( that I need to get back..)?"
    " Can you ask him if he could give me the book?"
    " Can you ask to get the book back from him?"
    " Can you ask(him) whether he should give me the book?"
    " Have you asked him about that ( giving me the book)?"
    " Ask him that I need the book !"
    Never heard " ask+that-clause".
    Open correction, pls !
    Can you ask that he give me the book? This is correct English.

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    Default Re: Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    Can you ask that he give me the book? This is correct English.
    Thanks for correction, but could you please analyse it for me? since I only see: I know(that), I think(that), I understand(that), he says(that), ..and I/we/he/she ask(s) if/whether, ask+object, ask for...AND TO BE HONEST, I have never heard someone asks that(clause) ( of course my English level is not good enough, I means the fact that I have never heard of it does not mean it's wrong or impossible, that was why I had said it SOUNDed wrong to me).
    Btw, "..that he give(without S)..?" Is the verb "give" in subjunctive mood, which why it goes as if it was a bare infinitive?
    Looking forward to hearing from your explanation soon.
    Thanks anyway teacher !

  6. #6
    bhaisahab's Avatar
    bhaisahab is offline Moderator
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    Default Re: Do you think Im shy vs Do you think me shy?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenkk2 View Post
    Thanks for correction, but could you please analyse it for me? since I only see: I know(that), I think(that), I understand(that), he says(that), ..and I/we/he/she ask(s) if/whether, ask+object, ask for...AND TO BE HONEST, I have never heard someone asks that(clause) ( of course my English level is not good enough, I means the fact that I have never heard of it does not mean it's wrong or impossible, that was why I had said it SOUNDed wrong to me).
    Btw, "..that he give(without S)..?" Is the verb "give" in subjunctive mood, which why it goes as if it was a bare infinitive?
    Looking forward to hearing from your explanation soon.
    Thanks anyway teacher !
    If you read BobK's post, you will see that he has explained it.

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