What are prepositions? How is Plus a preposition?

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lauralie2

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I prefer the preposition interpretation.
Me too.


Conjunction

  • Red and blue are primary colors. <each is a primary> conj.
    • Red is a primary color and blue is a primary color.
  • One and one is two. <each is not 2> not a conj.
    • One is not two and one is not two.

If and were a conjunction in that context, the resulting meaning would be 1 is 2. The meaning we want is 1+1 is 2:


Preposition


  • One and/plus one is two. <together they make 2> prep.
  • Red and/plus blue are primary colors. <together they make a primary color> not a prep. Together they make a secondary color, purple.

In short, in the context 1+1=2, and functions as a preposition when it is synonymous with the preposition plus.


  • One plus/and one is two. :tick: <preposition>

  • One plus/and one is two. :cross: <conjunction>
 

Pedroski

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I hadda go to work today, gimme a break!
Philo, as learner of English, you might do better to try and get over your ego, and sometimes cast doubt on what your 'proper grammarians' write in their books. The last word on language has not yet been uttered.

about: O.E. abutan, earlier onbutan "on the outside of," from on "on" + be "by" + utan "outside," from ut (see out).

Relational ok, it relates the position of the subject/object to something. Just as 'in, on' do. Attempt a definition of 'about' without using a preposition in its stead.
 

alkaspeltzar

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Well, no one really answered my question yes or no, that in the sentence "two plus three equals five".....the "two plus three" is the subject? Yes?


And for Lauralie2, depending on the site you reference, you see both plus acting by some definitions as a conjunction and a preposition for the same example. Seems to me it is one of those words which falls into both categories.

From collin learners dictionary, they say it is a conjunction
From Oxford dictionary, they say a preposition.

Seems to be both realy in the end.

I will just understand then that in Math, 2+3=5, it is the 2+3 that is the value equal to 5, where 2+3 is the subject. And plus means add, and if it is a preposition or conjunction doesn't really matter since in math, 2+3=5 is always true and I understand that. So thanks
 

shoaib 1

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I am particularly interested in how the word 'plus' is a preposition. In the example, "Two plus three equals five", according to my dictionary, plus is a preposition. How? Seems more like a conjunction.

And isn't the entire phrase "two plus three" the subject of the sentence, since that is what is equal to five? It is both the two and three together.

Thanks for the help in advance. I appreciate the explaination.
"Two plus three equals five"
In this sentence,'plus' is preposition and not conjunction because if we take it as conjunction, there must be two nouns('two', 'three') and not a single noun phrase.If so, we cannot use "equals" which qualifies a third person singular noun.
Take other examples of the use of preposition before the main verb
"Jimmy with his friends is working on this project"
"This book of verses is very interesting"
 

alkaspeltzar

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Okay, I got it, in my example it is more a preposition.

And from what you are saying the noun/noun phrase "two plus three" is functioning as the object equal to five. Therefore that makes it the subject like the other examples shown right?

The subject is always the 'doer' in the sentence. And it is the amount of "two and three" that is the one being equal.

I think this has been answered, but I just want to be sure. So if you could please confirm this and then I will leave it alone.

Thankfyou for all your help:)
 

Pedroski

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'plus' means 'add to', or just 'to'. Even if you use 'and'' you have to interpret it as 'to' or 'plus', not as a conjunction, because '2 is five and 3 is five.' is not very true. cf June and Jane are clever. June is clever and Jane is clever.

2 plus 3 is 5. 2 added to 3 is 5. Move 2 apples to 3 apples, then you have 5 apples.

*2 is 5.
*plus 3 is 5.
(2 plus 3) is/equals five. (subject)
 

alkaspeltzar

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I Got it. Plus is a preposition that connects two and three. This become one noun phrase that becomes the subject of the sentence.

So for "Two plus three equals five"

Not true to say "two equals five"-----two not subject
Not true to say "plus three equals five---not subject either.
but "Two plus three" is the subject equal to five.


Thanks for clarifying the sentence. Thanks for clarifying the confusion of plus in this application. I can sleep easy now@!
 

Pedroski

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Just a slight problem: It is not possible to distinguish a subject and an object here. Subject and object are sometimes useful categories, but not always.
 

alkaspeltzar

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What do you mean subject cannot be distinguished?

For example, "kEvin is fine"---Kevin Is the doer, kevin is the subject

What is not distinguishable with that?

With two plus three equals five, it is the same thing. The (two plus three) is the subject. You even wrote it yourself:

*2 is 5.
*plus 3 is 5.
(2 plus 3) is/equals five. (subject)
 

alkaspeltzar

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OR by meaning subjects and objects in this case are not distinguishable since I could right for example:

Kevin is a teacher. or A teacher is kevin.

In either case depending on how you read it, one or the other could be the subject since they are the same.

Pedroski, is that what you meant?
 

Pedroski

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Kevin is a teacher.

Kevin belongs to the set of things known as 'teacher'. Assume Bob an Ana are also teachers.

'A teacher is Kevin' is then incorrect, inasmuch as not all teachers are Kevin.

There are languages which mark 'subjects' as nominative. That is to say, the form of the word is different, according to which 'case' it has. This is not apparent in English.

Normally, in such languages, the object of a verb is marked with a case other than nominative, such as accusative. When you use copular verbs, things change.

In Latin 'dux' (subject, nominative) means leader. But used as an object of a verb, 'dux' would normally be 'ducem accusative)'
1)Caesar dux est.
Caesar leader is.

2) *Caesar ducem est. Not good.

The subject and the object of 'is' in 1) have the same case. That is why I said, you can't distinguish subject and object, just because one is left and the other is right of the verb. Call them either, or forget the concept.

My Latin is terrible, but I can do German. Normally, the object of a verb would take at least accusative case. But you can't say: 'I am Peter' *Ich bin den Peter. (den=the accusative). It must be: 'Ich bin der Peter.' (der=the nominative). So which is the subject?

If you are interested, look up 'unaccusative verbs'. There are many, and it is very interesting. After that, go on to 'unergative verbs'. if you get a clear idea of the difference, please explain it to me! That should keep you out of mischief!
 

alkaspeltzar

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Every sentence in english has a subject. I am not that deep into english so I don't know it follows with latin or german. So do exactly what you mean, you have lost me.

But I do know from reading the other posts from others, that they have defined that (two plus three) in my example is a subject.

So I will leave it at that before I get more confusued
 

philo2009

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I hadda go... in its stead.

If you meant simply that all prepositions were locative in origin, then that is what you should have said, thus avoiding a needless, and potentially misleading, comment!
 

philo2009

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okay, so from what I understand, there are different types of prepositions.

But back to the example at hand. When you have the sentence, "two plus three is five", the breakdown from a english standpoint it this:

Two is a noun and it heads the noun phrase two plus three
plus is a preposition and it heads the phrase plus three
three is a noun and the object of the preposition plus

plus three is a prepositional phrase modifying two
Two plus three is a noun phrase and the subject of the sentence

is the verb
five is a noun

This makes sense, This is correct yes or no?

Notwithstanding the above-mentioned terminological objection, yes, it is.
 

philo2009

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Could you direct me to the research on that. (I can't seem to find anything about it online.) Much thanks.

The best explanation that I know of is to be found in the Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language (Quirk, Greenbaum et al.).

In a nutshell: the head of a phrase must be an element that is clearly superordinate to its other constituents, essentially completely independent of them, whilst they are entirely dependent on it. A preposition, however, cannot be regarded as intrinsically any more vital to a prepositional phrase than its object noun: both elements being, therefore, of roughly equal importance, the phrase (in contrast to the noun, verb, adverb or adjective phrase) is said to be non-headed.
 

philo2009

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In short, in the context 1+1=2, and functions as a preposition

Hmmm...

Although your intention here may be laudable (i.e. to provide a rational explanation for the rejection of unacceptable mathematical statements such as

*One and one are two.

as opposed to acceptable, but formally less apparently defensible

One and one is two.)

, to attempt to label 'and' a preposition is, I'm afraid, not the right way to go about it!

As easy as it would be simply to point out that no respectable dictionary on earth would ever list it as one, I would rather persuade you with the reasoning process that underlies the way grammarians reckon its syntactic status.

Coordinating conjunctions, although primarily clause-connectors, can often function as simple word/phrase-connectors, e.g. 'between Dover and Calais' - not an abridged proposition of any kind, but a simple compound of two nouns. (The only preposition here, needless to say, is 'between'.)

While it is, of course, true that such a compound, when standing as the subject of a verb, will typically govern that verb in the plural, there are cases where, on the basis of unity of sense, the verb tends rather to be singular, as in

Bacon and eggs is a great way to start the day.

, as opposed to structurally unexceptionable, but semantically strange

!Bacon and eggs are a great way to start the day.

, since, in speaking of 'bacon and eggs', we are referring to a single meal, a sense-wise indivisible commodity, rather than making an assertion relating to either 'eggs' or 'bacon' as individual items.

But this expressive facility does not make the 'and' of the earlier sentence suddenly a preposition! It remains a conjunction, for the simple reason that a preposition governs its noun in the objective case, while a conjunction simply connects, but does not govern.

We can demonstrate the difference by looking at the effects of a true preposition, e.g. the (phrasal) preposition 'together with'.

If we were to replace selected nouns in

[1] The bus-driver, together with the tour guides, waited outside the church.

with pronouns, we would get

[2] He, together with them, waited outside the church.

'He', as sentence-subject, is nominative, while 'them', as object of the preposition, is obligatorily objective-case.

If, on the other hand, we were to replace the preposition of [1] with the conjunction 'and', producing a semantically identical sentence,

[3] The bus-driver, and the tour guides, waited outside the church.

and performed the same substitution exercise, we would get

[4] He, and they, waited outside the church.

The morphology of the boldfaced pronouns in [2] and [4] is fixed entirely, and explicable only, according to the grammatical function of the preceding words. Moreover, there is no argument based on semantic intent that could ever make either

[5] *He, together with they, waited outside the church.

or

[6] *He, and them, waited outside the church.

grammatically acceptable.

Conclusion: whether serving as a clause-connector or as a phrase-connector, 'and' is only ever a conjunction.

QED

N.B. It will not escape the observant that essentially the same argument could be used to prove that 'plus' in standard, formal use is a preposition and not a conjunction, since we would say, e.g.

He, plus them,...

and not

*He, plus they,...
 

philo2009

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Well, no one really answered my question yes or no, that in the sentence "two plus three equals five".....the "two plus three" is the subject? Yes?

The answer is a resounding YES! Nobody, I think, would ever dispute that 'two plus three' does indeed constitute, as a totality, the subject-phrase of the sentence.

The argument here has revolved essentially around the inner structure of that phrase, i.e. whether 'plus' is preposition or conjunction. If you care to refer to post #37 of this thread, you will, I think, find fairly incontrovertible proof of the former!
 

Pedroski

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What definition from your competent grammarians are you using to unquestionably establish the subjecthood of 'two plus three'?
 

Abstract Idea

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Coordinating conjunctions, although primarily clause-connectors, can often function as simple word/phrase-connectors, e.g. 'between Dover and Calais' - not an abridged proposition of any kind, but a simple compound of two nouns. (The only preposition here, needless to say, is 'between'.)

While it is, of course, true that such a compound, when standing as the subject of a verb, will typically govern that verb in the plural, there are cases where, on the basis of unity of sense, the verb tends rather to be singular, as in

Bacon and eggs is a great way to start the day.

, as opposed to structurally unexceptionable, but semantically strange

!Bacon and eggs are a great way to start the day.

, since, in speaking of 'bacon and eggs', we are referring to a single meal, a sense-wise indivisible commodity, rather than making an assertion relating to either 'eggs' or 'bacon' as individual items.

But this expressive facility does not make the 'and' of the earlier sentence suddenly a preposition! It remains a conjunction, for the simple reason that a preposition governs its noun in the objective case, while a conjunction simply connects, but does not govern.

We can demonstrate the difference by looking at the effects of a true preposition, e.g. the (phrasal) preposition 'together with'.

If we were to replace selected nouns in

[1] The bus-driver, together with the tour guides, waited outside the church.

with pronouns, we would get

[2] He, together with them, waited outside the church.

'He', as sentence-subject, is nominative, while 'them', as object of the preposition, is obligatorily objective-case.

If, on the other hand, we were to replace the preposition of [1] with the conjunction 'and', producing a semantically identical sentence,

[3] The bus-driver, and the tour guides, waited outside the church.

and performed the same substitution exercise, we would get

[4] He, and they, waited outside the church.

The morphology of the boldfaced pronouns in [2] and [4] is fixed entirely, and explicable only, according to the grammatical function of the preceding words. Moreover, there is no argument based on semantic intent that could ever make either

[5] *He, together with they, waited outside the church.

or

[6] *He, and them, waited outside the church.

grammatically acceptable.

Conclusion: whether serving as a clause-connector or as a phrase-connector, 'and' is only ever a conjunction.

QED

A "formal proof" !

Thanks for such an enlightening post phillo2009. It indeed clarified many things about this topic.
 
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