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  1. #1
    Ducklet Cat's Avatar
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    Question Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Hello,

    I've been taught that we says cats /kats/ with an s because /t/ is a voiceless sound and so is /s/.
    And that we says dogs /d?gz/ because /g/ is a voiced sound, and so is /z/


    Now, why do we then says:
    dishes /diʃiz/
    arches /artʃiz/
    teaches /teetʃiz/

    Why is that /iz/? We can very well say /artʃs/ or /artʃis/, /diʃs/ or /diʃis/ I've just tried saying it , and it went like a breeze!

    aren't "ʃ" and "tʃ" voiceless sounds? While /dʒ/ is the voiced counterpart of "tʃ"?
    Or am I messing things up? :)

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Ducklet Cat; 15-Oct-2010 at 15:19.

  2. #2
    5jj's Avatar
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    You were told only part of what happens.

    The full system is:
    The final –(e)s of this form is pronounced:
    /s/ after unvoiced consonants except /s, ʃ, ʧ/: /kIks, pʊts, kɒfs/
    /z/ after vowels, diphthongs and voiced consonants except /z, ʒ, ʤ/ : /hʌgz, siːz, leIz/
    /Iz/(or/əz/) after /s, z, ʃ, ʒ, ʧ/ and /ʤ/: /bɒksIz, bʌzIz, wɒʃIz ruːʒIz, kśʧIz, ʤʌʤIz/

    You wrote: "We can very well say /artʃs/ or /artʃis/, /diʃs/ or /diʃis/ I've just tried saying it , and it went like a breeze"
    I'm inclined to think that, without fully realising it, you inserted a short schwa or /I/ into your/artʃs/ and /diʃs/
    Last edited by 5jj; 15-Oct-2010 at 20:34.

  3. #3
    Ducklet Cat's Avatar
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    I see. Many thanks for putting the whole rule.
    That was really really useful.

    But I do wonder, why were these 6 sounds treated differently and required and extra "i" before the /z/?
    I can feel they all have a certain "noise" compared to other sounds, but is there a name for than in phonology?

    And allow me ask another question:
    what about the (e)d" as in "reached"
    Do we say /reeʧd/ or /reeʧid/?

    Is there a rule for the (e)d, like the one you mentioned for the (e)s?

    Thanks a lot again.

  4. #4
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Those 6 high-pitched turbulent sounds are sometimes referred to as sibilants.

    The other system is:

    The final –(e)d of this form is pronounced:
    /t/ after unvoiced consonants except /t/: /kIkt, stɒpt, kɒft/
    /d/ after vowels and diphthongs and voiced consonants except /d/: /hʌgd, lIvd, friːd, pleId/
    /Id/ (or /əd/) after /t, d/: /wɒntId, wɒntǝd; niːd Id, niːdǝd/

    so, it's /reeʧd/ (or rather: /riːʧd/)

  5. #5
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Do some dialects have [-ɨz] instead of [-ɪz] there? Which dialects?

  6. #6
    5jj's Avatar
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Alan Cruttenden (2001) makes no mention of [ɪ] ever being rendered as [ɨ] (Gimson’s Pronunciation of English, London: Arnold). However, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I can’t think of any examples. Did you have any in mind?

  7. #7
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Alan Cruttenden (2001) makes no mention of [ɪ] ever being rendered as [ɨ] (Gimson’s Pronunciation of English, London: Arnold). However, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. I can’t think of any examples. Did you have any in mind?
    Yes. I asked about it once already, and got some help, but I still don't know the answer. It's about some articles on Wikipedia that mention ɨ as being present in word "roses", [ˈɹoʊzɨz] in some dialects. Unfortunately, they don't say which dialects have it.
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 16-Oct-2010 at 17:12.

  8. #8
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Many thanks :)

  9. #9
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    Yes. I asked about it once already, and got some help, but I still don't know the answer. It's about some articles on Wikipedia that mention ɨ as being present in word "roses", [ˈɹoʊzɨz] in some dialects. Unfortunately, they don't say which dialects have it.
    Click here. It doesn't say which dialect(s), but it sheds light on the reason barred-i is used in transcriptions.

    My pronunciation of e in roses is different from a in Rosa's. Roses has barred-i; Rosa's has schwa.

    It would be beneficial if Australian, British, Canadian, and Indian speakers could offer their pronunciations of roses and Rosa's so that we can determine which major dialects have barred-i.

    I read somewhere (I'll have to find the articles) that e in roses and a in Rosa's merged to schwa in Australian English, but did not merge in American English. Let's see, shall we?

  10. #10
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    Re: Dishes, Arches, Teaches ...etc

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Alan Cruttenden (2001) makes no mention of [ɪ] ever being rendered as [ɨ] (Gimsonís Pronunciation of English, London: Arnold). However, that doesnít mean it doesnít happen. I canít think of any examples. Did you have any in mind?
    Yes - Tony Blair, passim.

    b

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