3rd conditional?

[5jj]

Pedroski, why don't you start a new thread entitled 'Is would a subjunctive?' or something like that. Then people who are interested in this can argue away to their heart's content. People who are not interested need not enter the thread, and need not be sidetracked in other threads.

 

[Danman]

Are there any Americans that can give me an opinion on this? I asked my cousin who's an english elementary teacher, and she wasn't sure... I'm just asking, since there are differences between AE and BE.

 

[Pedroski]

Well this is a thread, and you have said 'would' is just a past tense. Why not discuss it here? Tense is a difficult subject in any language. I find it fascinating that you should have trouble recognizing the subjunctive, and that you confuse it with the past tense. Especially as your etiquette says you were a teacher.

The Past Tense refers to things that happened in the past. The Past Subjunctive is so called because its written form resembles the past tense form. There the similarity ends. The subjunctive is not a tense, and cannot be located in time. Death is fairly final, and verifiable.

1) I killed him. Past Tense, he, poor chap, is dead.
2) I would kill him. Past Subjunctive, he is not dead. I cannot believe you think that this sentence says: 'He is dead', nor that you think this is a past tense sentence. But from what you have said here, and in another thread, you may in fact think so. These two sentences illustrate the difference between the past tense and the past subjunctive. This is the same usage as in the original sentence.

 

[5jj]

Are there any Americans that can give me an opinion on this? I asked my cousin who's an english elementary teacher, and she wasn't sure... I'm just asking, since there are differences between AE and BE.

We'll have to wait for a speaker of AmE to give a definitive answer. In the meantime, I'll just say that many Americans I have encountered seem to me to be very happy with: if I would have known that ...

To me that is unacceptable in BrE.

 

[Tdol]

Well this is a thread, and you have said 'would' is just a past tense. Why not discuss it here? Tense is a difficult subject in any language. I find it fascinating that you should have trouble recognizing the subjunctive, and that you confuse it with the past tense. Especially as your etiquette says you were a teacher.

Many people would simply say that would is the past tense of the modal auxiliary will and that the modals carry the concept of possibility/obligation etc. If this is a subjunctive use of would could you a) back it up with academic references and b) give would used in other moods?

I will repeat what I said earlier, and as modals cause more arguments than anything else here on the forum, I will ask you to cut the strident tone out, to state that would is a subjunctive is a matter of opinion and not fact. Please quote your sources. If you don't have them, then it is your opinion. Linguistics is awash with thoeries about modals- ranging from some who say that they are not verbs, to others that will and would are separate verbs and not the present and past tense of the same modal. You are elevating a personal view to claiming it as a fact, so it would be a good idea to back that up with several leading authorities backing you up. This is not the If I were/was debate, so I would respectfully ask you to back up your claims with references.

 

[Tdol]

We'll have to wait for a speaker of AmE to give a definitive answer. In the meantime, I'll just say that many Americans I have encountered seem to me to be very happy with: if I would have known that ...

To me that is unacceptable in BrE.

When Paul McCartney's first wife died, he was asked whether he would have used a medicine tested on animals and he said 'If it would have cured her, I would have used it', which is an example, though different from the one used, where it might work in BrE.

 

[5jj]

When Paul McCartney's first wife died, he was asked whether he would have used a medicine tested on animals and he said 'If it would have cured her, I would have used it', which is an example, though different from the one used, where it might work in BrE.

An interesting example.

I think that in what is traditionally known as the third condition(al), we are dealing with the counterfactual:

If I he had asked me, I would have refused.
Did he ask me? No
Did I refuse? Clearly not - I didn't have the opportunity.

Here, IMO, the past perfect is obligatory in BrE; would have asked is unacceptable.

In the Paul McCartney example, we are dealing with the hypothetical.

If it would have cured her, I would have used it.
Did it cure her? The question is irrelevant, because it wasn't used.

Perhaps the closest we can get to the traditional third conditional here is something like:

If I had known (that it would cure her), I would have used it.

So the McCartney example is both acceptable in BrE and is not an example of would have in a counterfactual utterance.

IMO

p.s. If you suffer from insomnia, I have expanded my thoughts on condition(al)s here: http://www.gramorak.com/Articles/Conditionals.pdf

 

[riquecohen]

Evidently a lot of Americans get that wrong, haha. :-D What are you referring to?

I've never been corrected on that (and that after 2 years of college).

edit: Say what? ... "I'm moving house" is confusing! This expression is never used in AmE. It's simply "I'm moving."

 

[riquecohen]

We'll have to wait for a speaker of AmE to give a definitive answer. In the meantime, I'll just say that many Americans I have encountered seem to me to be very happy with: if I would have known that ...

To me that is unacceptable in BrE.

And in AmE as well.
Perhaps you've been meeting the wrong Americans.

 

[5jj]

Perhaps you've been meeting the wrong Americans.

In that they don't agree with me, they must be wrong.:roll:

The American grammars I have consulted tell me that AmE usage is the same as BrE on this point, but I have met so many Americans who use would in the if-clause in cases where the books say it's incorrect that I am really not sure.

Most of the Americans I have met in recent years have been in the world of TEFL, and have had a sound education, so I am not talking about people who frequently make mistakes in grammar.

I also have the impression that Americans in general are more fastidious about following rules than most British people - the subjunctive for example is more alive on your side of the pond than it is on ours, as is the use of whom.

Could this be a case where American grammar books have not caught up with normal usage, or have I really just met the wrong Americans?

 

[riquecohen]

In that they don't agree with me, they must be wrong.:roll:

The American grammars I have consulted tell me that AmE usage is the same as BrE on this point, but I have met so many Americans who use would in the if-clause in cases where the books say it's incorrect that I am really not sure. Are we talking about usage or correctness? Perhaps they will be correct a hundred years from now, but it's regrettable that they are so ahead of their time.
Most of the Americans I have met in recent years have been in the world of TEFL, and have had a sound education, so I am not talking about people who frequently make mistakes in grammar. This is also regrettable, because they are making mistakes.

I also have the impression that Americans in general are more fastidious about following some rules than most British people - the subjunctive for example is more alive on your side of the pond than it is on ours, as is the use of whom.

Could this be a case where American grammar books have not caught up with normal usage, or have I really just met the wrong Americans?

Having lived abroad for the past eight years, I'm not able to say with certainty what "normal usage" is. Have you read John McWhorter's "Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue?" While I don't necessarily agree, he makes an interesting case for "flexibility" in determining '"correctness."

 

[Danman]

We'll have to wait for a speaker of AmE to give a definitive answer. In the meantime, I'll just say that many Americans I have encountered seem to me to be very happy with: if I would have known that ...

To me that is unacceptable in BrE.

Well, in my (English) class whatever is correct in the Native Language (in this case AE), is accepted as correct. That's why I would like to know, and I don't want to change my AE inside out.

'If it would have cured her, I would have used it'

huh, interesting... but it is by BE standards still incorrect?

In the Paul McCartney example, we are dealing with the hypothetical.

When i say "Imagine" then that's hypothetical, is it not?

 

[Pedroski]

"Imagine you would have to go to another country and learn German."

Tdol, I hope we can agree on what constitutes the Past Tense. Something that happened, Something which occurred. This is all you need to identify the Past Subjunctive. Look at any sentence containing what seems to be a past tense verb form. Ask yourself: Did this happen?
I read a book. Past Tense.
I wrote a poem. Past Tense.
I would sit for hours by the river. Past Tense.

I would kill you. You are not dead. I have not killed you. Subjunctive. Looks like the Past Tense, but describes an irreal situation.

If your definition of Past Tense differs from mine, then that will cause you to draw different conclusions.