Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 54
  1. #11
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Philippines
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    42,543
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    This page divides volitive subjunctives into 5 sub-categories (for Latin):
    Subjunctives
    Could it be something similar to the concessive subjunctive described? It is a weird case- it looks like a subjunctive but it's hard to give a reason for it being one.

  2. #12
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    28,168
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    Could it be something similar to the concessive subjunctive described? It is a weird case- it looks like a subjunctive but it's hard to give a reason for it being one.
    It might be, but, as you say, it's a weird case. I am not happy with a subjunctive explanation, but less unhappy than with the come=preposition suggestion.

    I have to say, though, that the preposition suggestion has its attractions, in a perverse kind of way. Were it not for the other expressions I dragged up, I'd be wondering.

  3. #13
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Philippines
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    42,543
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Maybe it's a prepositional subjunctive.

  4. #14
    Pedroski is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Other
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    The subjunctive is very easy. Just ask yourself if January has come: No, we are in December. So 'come January' is a subjunctive. What flavour of subjunctive is a matter of personal taste (no pun intended) and not very important.

    'Their arguments won out and Republicans will control a majority of statehouses nationwide come January/when January comes.'

    I couldn't go with a preposition interpretation, as 'come' can never be an adverb. That would be 'comely'.

  5. #15
    philo2009 is offline Key Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Academic
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • Japan
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,507
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    My questions are:

    1. Their arguments won out -

    a) is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?) does it have anything to do with the absolute construction?

    b) or is it a declarative one, meaning that Republicans did win out?

    b)!

    2. come January - is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?)

    Yes, a highly unusual use of the present subjunctive, sometimes termed an optative subjunctive, similar to that of Come hell or high water.

    This particular case is atypical in that it has a fixed temporal sense, rather than the kind of hypothetical sense more commonly associated with subjunctive forms.

    Some reference works even go so far as to classify it as a preposition (possibly, I suspect on account of a mistaken etymological connection with Latin preposition and conjunction cum), but there is far from universal agreement on this.

  6. #16
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    28,168
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Philo: This particular case is atypical in that it has a fixed temporal sense, rather than the kind of hypothetical sense more commonly associated with subjunctive forms.
    5jj: That problem is what made me wonder about a 'subjunctive of assumption'.

    Pedroski: I couldn't go with a preposition interpretation, as 'come' can never be an adverb. That would be 'comely'.
    5jj: Not necessarily. We have enough hard, fast, late (adv) and comely, likely, friendly (adj) examples not to worry about that.

    Philo: Some reference works even go so far as to classify it as a preposition but there is far from universal agreement on this.
    5jj: Good. I tried to find some, but couldn't. Could you tell me the names of one or two, please?

  7. #17
    swimagic is offline Newbie
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Student or Learner
      • Native Language:
      • Chinese
      • Home Country:
      • China
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    First of all, plz let me extend my sincere thanks to all the teachers with replies above.
    Eager for some explanations for my puzzlement, i found this forum and it was my first post. Having seen all these replies and arguments, it's really encouraged me to consult you guys more about future questions.

    As a learner, I guess, for me, understanding a sentence always comes before the grammar. and i'm pretty satisfied settling for fivejedjon's citation from Quirk.

    With respect to the "won out" part, i just think it doesnt make sense (in meaning) to be indicative.
    As far as I know, Republicans' challenges to the health-care overhaul are still having trouble to be permitted to go to trial (in some states), let alone in effect winnning out. then why the past indicative tense?

    Thx again.
    Last edited by swimagic; 06-Dec-2010 at 15:12. Reason: small adjustments

  8. #18
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    28,168
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo.

    That statement is untrue. But, it is presented as a fact, and the verb is indicative.

    Their arguments won out.

    True or not, it is presented as a fact. The verb is indicative.

  9. #19
    swimagic is offline Newbie
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Student or Learner
      • Native Language:
      • Chinese
      • Home Country:
      • China
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    9
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by swimagic View Post
    Having seen all these replies and arguments, it's really encouraged me to consult you guys more about future questions.
    Should i write, instead, "Seeing all these replies ..."
    (i thought i should correct the previous one)

    more often than not, i have puzzlements about this structure.
    my understanding is like this,
    1. Having seen the horrible accident, she had nightmares repeatedly.
    2. Seeing the horrible accident, she calls the police.

  10. #20
    Pedroski is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Other
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: subjunctive or not

    Prepositions are my pets. I should really, sincerely like to see 'come' used as a prepo. Can you give any examples? That would be very very interesting for me!

    Swimagic: this is not a Chinese forum, but help me out here please: who is waiting for whom??

    你们等我一会儿。我等你们一会儿。

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Subjuntive Mood
    By MARAMARA in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 18-Jan-2009, 20:57

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Hotchalk