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  1. #31
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    The following sentence seems to refute the idea.

    And then came Christmas.

  2. #32
    corum is offline Banned
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post
    I mean, I find the idea interesting, but its ramifications will lead to problems:

    Come in!
    Come here!
    Go West!
    Jump ship!
    Arrive London 2am.
    The same argument would make prepos of the verbs here.

    Also, if it were a prepo, you could use it in 'phrasal' type verbs: 'go in', 'put up', 'see through'. Can you find any examples of such use? 'go come'? Maybe: 'I will come', but no, that won't work.
    Not every, say, 'provided' is a subordinating conjunction and similarly, not every, 'come' is a preposition. Sentence structure matters.

    I have provided them with some fruits.

    Does the fact that 'provided' above is part of a verb phrase exclude the possibility of 'provided' functioning elsewhere as a subordinator? No. Does the fact that 'come' functions as a verb somewhere rule out the possibility of 'come' functioning as a preposition somewhere else? I highly doubt it.

  3. #33
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedroski View Post

    1. Come in! Come here! Go West! Jump ship! Arrive London 2am.
    The same argument would make prepos of the verbs here.

    2. Also, if it were a prepo, you could use it in 'phrasal' type verbs: 'go in', 'put up', 'see through'. Can you find any examples of such use? 'go come'? Maybe: 'I will come', but no, that won't work.

    1. These all seem to be examples of imperatives, a different kettle of fish from 'Come March'.

    2. All phrasal verbs, almost by definition, consist of a verb and at least one preposition (or adverb, or particle). Not all prepositions are used in the formation of phrasal verbs.

    Neither of your arguments suffices to prove that 'come' in 'come March' is not a preposition.

  4. #34
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    The following sentence seems to refute the idea.

    And then came Christmas.
    Surely this is just a version of 'And then Christmas came'?

  5. #35
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    Surely this is just a version of 'And then Christmas came'?
    It is. I believe it's an extant VS version.

  6. #36
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by lauralie2 View Post
    Come March

    1. subject
    2. object of a verb
    3. object of a preposition
    Option 1. is out given word-order constraints. Option 2. and 3 are possible but at this stage yet to be determined.
    If 2. (the object of a verb), then expect an implied subject; i.e., archaic come (ye) March; Cf. mark (ye) my words. But would that be too much of a stretch?
    If 3. (the object of a preposition), then expect 'come' to gain its category via its position relative to the noun 'March' as we are constrained by the grammar to define it in any other way.
    1. Corum asked in post 30, "Is English strictly an SVO language?, and, of course, the answer is no. Should you doubt that, re-read this sentence. Besides, the main argument against 'come' as a preposition in 'come March' seems to be that it is a subjunctive verb. If that be the case, then 'March' is the subject.
    2. I feel that 'March' as an object of otherwise intransitive 'come' is far too much of a stretch.
    3. I think I agree with you here, but do not really understand your, "we are constrained by the grammar to define it any other way."

  7. #37
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    It is. I believe it's an extant VS version.
    In that case, there is no doubt that 'came' is a verb in your sentence (indicative, too), so this example is not really relevant to this discussion, I think. Or is it?

  8. #38
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    In that case, there is no doubt that 'came' is a verb in your sentence (indicative, too), so this example is not really relevant to this discussion, I think. Or is it?
    Corum asked whether lauralie2 thought English was strictly SVO. I allowed myself to give a counterexample. As you said, English is not stricly SVO and I thought an uncontroversial example wouldn't be a bad idea.

  9. #39
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    Corum asked whether lauralie2 thought English was strictly SVO. I allowed myself to give a counterexample. As you said, English is not stricly SVO and I thought an uncontroversial example wouldn't be a bad idea.
    I apologise, Birdeen's Call. I misunderstood the reason for your post. It was, in fact, completely relevant.
    Last edited by Johnson_F; 12-Dec-2010 at 00:09. Reason: punctuation corrected

  10. #40
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
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    Re: subjunctive or not

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    It is. I believe it's an extant VS version.
    It is, and I think your example is a great addition to the discussion. Well done! I stand corrected.

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