[Grammar] subjunctive or not

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swimagic

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hi, teachers,

I read a news article titled Obama faces newly elected governors, and i'm not sure if I get the grammar right in one sentence as follow.

Their arguments won out and Republicans will control a majority of statehouses nationwide come January.

(their arguments meaning Repulicans's arguments for overturning the health care overhaul and canceling Obama's economic stimulus spending.)



My questions are:

1. Their arguments won out -


a) is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?) does it have anything to do with the absolute construction?

b) or is it a declarative one, meaning that Republicans did win out?


2. come January - is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?)


Thx in advance.
 
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corum

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1. Their arguments won out -


a) is this a subjunctive mode?

No, the verb phrase is in indicative mood.

a) is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?) does it have anything to do with the absolute construction?

No and no.

come January - is this a subjunctive mode?

No, it is a prepositional phrase in form and a temporal adjunct, an adverbial, in function.

come - definition. American English definition of come by Macmillan Dictionary
 

5jj

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As Corum well knows, I am not a fan of the subjunctive, and I think that claims are sometimes made that verb forms are subjunctive when they are not.

However, with 'come January', I have to say that I think this is a subjunctive form.

"
Present subjunctive come is used in a temporal clause (generally initial) without a subordinator:

Come winter, we'll have to pay a great deal more for vegetables and fruit, ['When winter comes, ...']
" Quirk et al (1985)

Only a subjunctive reading can account for the loss of the -s ending on come.
 

corum

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Only a subjunctive reading can account for the loss of the -s ending on come.

Or the interpretation that there is a verb 'come' and a preposition 'come'. Would the implications of adopting this theory violate the integrity of the English grammar?


Come winter, we'll have to pay a great deal more for vegetables and fruit,

What type of modality is expressed in this sentence? Do we use the subjunctive for that type of modality? That is why I do not see any motivation yet for adopting this interpretation. But I am sure it has its merits; it is just that I can't appreciate them yet. :up:
 

5jj

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Or the interpretation that there is a verb 'come' and a preposition 'come'.
Well, that's a novel thought. A quick look through List of English prepositions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia suggests to me that there are no other prepositions so intimately linked with a verb and its core meaning. As the idea behind 'come' is so closely linked with the (verbal) idea of 'coming', I find the suggestion that 'come' is a preposition less convincing than that it is a verb. Would your preposition interpretation extend to 'come what may', 'come hell or high water'?
What type of modality is expressed in this sentence? Do we use the subjunctive for that type of modality?
Good question.

Is it possible that the thought behind it is not Quirk's ,when winter comes, but rather 'assuming that winter come'?

p.s. Swimagic, I agree with the first two of Corum's three original answers.
 
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5jj

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Continuation of #5

I have located examples of other verbs that appear to be used in a similar way to come, as we are discussing it. If they are so used, then the categorisation of come as a subjunctive form of a verb seems more likely.

Curme (1931) notes a ‘Volitive Subjunctive’ and gives examples such as : Suffice it to say that; laugh those that can, weep those that may.

He also notes ‘Optative Subjunctives', example: Say what he will, he cannot make matters worse.

Curme, George O (1931) Syntax, Boston: D C Heath
 

corum

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Is it possible that the thought behind it is not Quirk's ,when winter comes, but rather 'assuming that winter come'?

No.

Come winter, we'll have to pay a great deal more for vegetables and fruit.
In (Next) winter...
When winter comes...

I have to ruminate about this more.

Come what may

That may triggers the subjunctive. No?

come hell or high water'

Hypothetical, subjunctive.

As the idea behind 'come' is so closely linked with the (verbal) idea of 'coming'

Let sleeping dogs lie.
Which dogs? Sleeping dogs. The big brown sleeping dogs. Adjective.
What are the sleeping dogs doing? They are sleeping. Verb.
 

corum

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Let sleeping dogs lie.
Which dogs? Sleeping dogs. The big brown sleeping dogs. Adjective.
What are the sleeping dogs doing? They are sleeping. Verb.

With my wrong reasoning I managed to convince myself over to the subjunctive reading.

In the quoted part I fail to recognize the difference between form and function. Although 'sleeping' indeed modifies 'dogs', it still belongs to the formal class of verbs. This is still a verb in present participle form. That it functions like an adjective is a different kettle of fish.

Come winter...

I still have a problem in understanding why resort is made here to the subjunctive. No wish, no hypothetical proposition.
 

5jj

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1.
Corum: Come what may
That may triggers the subjunctive. No?

Fivejedjon: I don't think so. I think it's : come what may (come).
The second (implied) come is a bare infinitive following may. The first is, I think, a subjunctive.

2.
Corum: Come winter...

I still have a problem in understanding why resort is made here to the subjunctive. No wish, no hypothetical proposition.

Fivejedjon: My suggestion of 'assumption' was an attempt to answer this.
 

corum

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Fivejedjon: I don't think so. I think it's : come what may (come).
The second (implied) come is a bare infinitive following may. The first is, I think, a subjunctive.

Cross my heart it crossed my mind.

33.gif


2.
Corum: Come winter...

I still have a problem in understanding why resort is made here to the subjunctive. No wish, no hypothetical proposition.

Fivejedjon: My suggestion of 'assumption' was an attempt to answer this.
:up:
 

Tdol

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This page divides volitive subjunctives into 5 sub-categories (for Latin):
Subjunctives
Could it be something similar to the concessive subjunctive described? It is a weird case- it looks like a subjunctive but it's hard to give a reason for it being one.
 

5jj

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Could it be something similar to the concessive subjunctive described? It is a weird case- it looks like a subjunctive but it's hard to give a reason for it being one.

It might be, but, as you say, it's a weird case. I am not happy with a subjunctive explanation, but less unhappy than with the come=preposition suggestion.

I have to say, though, that the preposition suggestion has its attractions, in a perverse kind of way. Were it not for the other expressions I dragged up, I'd be wondering.
 

Tdol

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Maybe it's a prepositional subjunctive. ;-)
 

Pedroski

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The subjunctive is very easy. Just ask yourself if January has come: No, we are in December. So 'come January' is a subjunctive. What flavour of subjunctive is a matter of personal taste (no pun intended) and not very important.

'Their arguments won out and Republicans will control a majority of statehouses nationwide come January/when January comes.'

I couldn't go with a preposition interpretation, as 'come' can never be an adverb. That would be 'comely'.
 

philo2009

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My questions are:

1. Their arguments won out -

a) is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?) does it have anything to do with the absolute construction?

b) or is it a declarative one, meaning that Republicans did win out?

b)!

2. come January - is this a subjunctive mode? (if yes, what's the full sentence?)

Yes, a highly unusual use of the present subjunctive, sometimes termed an optative subjunctive, similar to that of Come hell or high water.

This particular case is atypical in that it has a fixed temporal sense, rather than the kind of hypothetical sense more commonly associated with subjunctive forms.

Some reference works even go so far as to classify it as a preposition (possibly, I suspect on account of a mistaken etymological connection with Latin preposition and conjunction cum), but there is far from universal agreement on this.
 

5jj

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Philo: This particular case is atypical in that it has a fixed temporal sense, rather than the kind of hypothetical sense more commonly associated with subjunctive forms.
5jj: That problem is what made me wonder about a 'subjunctive of assumption'.

Pedroski: I couldn't go with a preposition interpretation, as 'come' can never be an adverb. That would be 'comely'.
5jj: Not necessarily. We have enough hard, fast, late (adv) and comely, likely, friendly (adj) examples not to worry about that.

Philo: Some reference works even go so far as to classify it as a preposition but there is far from universal agreement on this.
5jj: Good. I tried to find some, but couldn't. Could you tell me the names of one or two, please?
 

swimagic

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First of all, plz let me extend my sincere thanks to all the teachers with replies above.
Eager for some explanations for my puzzlement, i found this forum and it was my first post. Having seen all these replies and arguments, it's really encouraged me to consult you guys more about future questions.

As a learner, I guess, for me, understanding a sentence always comes before the grammar. and i'm pretty satisfied settling for fivejedjon's citation from Quirk.

With respect to the "won out" part, i just think it doesnt make sense (in meaning) to be indicative.
As far as I know, Republicans' challenges to the health-care overhaul are still having trouble to be permitted to go to trial (in some states), let alone in effect winnning out. then why the past indicative tense?

Thx again.
 
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5jj

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Napoleon won the battle of Waterloo.

That statement is untrue. But, it is presented as a fact, and the verb is indicative.

Their arguments won out.

True or not, it is presented as a fact. The verb is indicative.
 

swimagic

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Having seen all these replies and arguments, it's really encouraged me to consult you guys more about future questions.

Should i write, instead, "Seeing all these replies ..."
(i thought i should correct the previous one)

more often than not, i have puzzlements about this structure.
my understanding is like this,
1. Having seen the horrible accident, she had nightmares repeatedly.
2. Seeing the horrible accident, she calls the police.
 

Pedroski

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Prepositions are my pets. I should really, sincerely like to see 'come' used as a prepo. Can you give any examples? That would be very very interesting for me!

Swimagic: this is not a Chinese forum, but help me out here please: who is waiting for whom??

你们等我一会儿。我等你们一会儿。
 
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