come January

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corum

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Frank Antonson

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I LOVE it. Frankly, I have no idea about how to explain why there is no "-s" on "come". I am guessing that it is some kind of relic from a "future subjunctive". There is such a mood in Portuguese and it changes the verb.

As far as the diagram is concerned, I would simply treat "When" as understood. "If" might be better to be understood because it, at least, would call for the conditional mood.

That's a good one!
 

corum

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I LOVE it. Frankly, I have no idea about how to explain why there is no "-s" on "come". I am guessing that it is some kind of relic from a "future subjunctive". There is such a mood in Portuguese and it changes the verb.

As far as the diagram is concerned, I would simply treat "When" as understood. "If" might be better to be understood because it, at least, would call for the conditional mood.

That's a good one!

:up:

come = preposition? No?
 

5jj

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come = preposition? No?
I have to admire your persistence, Corum.
Like you, I await the answer with interest.
 

Frank Antonson

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What?? "Come" is no preposition.

Here is a solution to the dilemma. "If January should COME (no "s"), the price of petrol will go up." Or "When January will..."

The use of a helping verb makes it so that the "s" is not required.

I admit that this is not so satisfactory, but it's the best I can come up with.

(So nice to have you back, Corum.)
 

Tdol

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Could it be a more religious mindset operating hundreds of years ago, using the subjunctive to express a less certain view of the future- January will only come should God permit it? Because the certainty that it will come that we have today means that I can't find any reason for the form. It would be 'When January comes' more than 'When January will come', so Should January come seems the closest to making sense of the structure to me, but that requires a mare fatalistic view than many have today.
 

corum

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I have to admire your persistence, Corum.

I am interested in grammar. :)

(So nice to have you back, Corum.)

4.gif


Could it be a more religious mindset operating hundreds of years ago, using the subjunctive to express a less certain view of the future- January will only come should God permit it? ... but that requires a mare fatalistic view than many have today.

pensif_28%20-%20emotloader.hu.gif


Quite interesting!
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What?? "Come" is no preposition.

Why? ;-)
 
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5jj

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corum

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Frank Antonson

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I agree with Corum's diagram, although a "should" could be understood as well.

The future subjunctive in Portugese works perfectly to explain it.

I DO believe that it is a relic of an older form. I wish I knew more about Old English.
 

Frank Antonson

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The OED is certainly an impressive source.

But, I would like to point out that it IS a British source, and in American terminology I have never seen "come" considered to be a preposition -- not that I have looked deeply.

Probably the OED gives a history and an etymology for that use of "come" -- as well as contexts.

"From" and "by" are quite different, in that they are never verbs. The prepositions "down" and "off" can sometimes be verbs -- but transitive ones.
 

corum

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Sorry Corum,

I don't know what you mean by this.

In those 11 pages of entries is there something about "come" as a preposition?

Frank
 

Frank Antonson

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"Harmon and House" describes a class of prepositions that come from verbs, but they always use the "-ing" inflection, e.g. "Regarding this matter" the OED might be wrong.
 

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" come - when a specified time is reached or event happens: I don‘t think that they’ll be far away from honours come the new season" preposition - informal . This comes from:
definition of come from Oxford Dictionaries Online


The 2nd edition of the OED lists 74 senses of 'come' as a verb, none of that word as a preposition.

In sense 35, 'come' "is used in such phrases as 'come what may, or will'. "
In sense 36.a, 'come' "is used with a future date following as subject ...'eighteen years old come Martinmas, - come Easter; i.e. let Easter come, when Easter shall come. arch. and dial.
"
 

Raymott

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I always assumed 'come' was a past participle here.
"January having/being come ... "
This is analogous to "That given ... as in "That given, I think we can all agree", meaning, "Given that ...; Now that that is given ..."
"Come January ..." = "When January has come ..."
"Come the revolution, intellectuals will be the first to go" - "Once the revolution has come..."
 

Frank Antonson

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Yes, Harmon and House may be wrong -- or I may be misunderstanding what they say wrongly.

I will readily grant you that considering "come" as a preposition easily solves the problem (You could say that that is what it has arrived at). But where did it COME from? What is its etymology? I asked a Latin teacher (whom I respect immensely) about this, and he immediately said "subjunctive" -- even though he was not familiar with the future subjunctive of Portuguese.

Where do we go from here, in this discussion? I guess I want to see the history of "come" as a preposition. I think I am better prepared to show the history of "Come January" as subjunctive, but it may take way more scholarly activity than I am willing to undertake.

Frank
 
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