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  1. #21
    corum is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Premodification of comparatives
    7.89 Adjectives and 'adverbs in the absolute degree can be premodified by
    intensifiers like very, quite, so, etc

    Comparatives of both adjectives and adverbs, whether inflected or
    periphrastic, can be premodified by amplifiers, such as much or very much.

    Much can be premodified by so, very, and that:
    so very much easier

    Premodification of superlatives
    7.90

    The nonperiphrastic superlative may be premodified by the intensifier very:
    They arrived only at the very last moment.
    She put on her very best dress.

    When very premodifies the superlative, a determiner is obligatory.
    Anna is the very youngest.
    Anny is youngest.
    Anny is very youngest.

    The periphrastic superlative is not premodified by the intensifier very (*the
    very most successful candidate) but by other expressions, eg:
    the most successful candidate of all
    the most remarkable election ever
    by far the best solution
    far (and away) the best solution
    When very premodifies the superlative, a determiner is obligatory.
    Quirk et. al., 1985, p.474.

    This is also interesting:

    He is very much an Englishman (= very English)
    He is very English.
    He is very much English.
    ?They are very much Englishmen
    Last edited by corum; 07-Dec-2010 at 20:05.

  2. #22
    Tdol is offline Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    I was interested to read an earlier comment, ' "How much beautiful is she" may be grammatically correct', as it is not acceptable in my dialect, either.
    In which dialects and/or contexts might it be acceptable?

    Not breaching certain rules of grammar is not the only test to apply to see if something works or not IMO.

  3. #23
    corum is offline Banned
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tdol View Post
    Not breaching certain rules of grammar is not the only test to apply to see if something works or not IMO.
    Actually, "very much beautiful" breaches the rule of English grammar (as others failed to do so, I provided reference to the rule in my previous posts).
    What other factors should be involved? Sociolinguistics?

  4. #24
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    Johnson_F is offline Member
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Sorry, but I am not clear about what some people are saying. I think that most people are saying that “how much beautiful” is incorrect (see the end of this message).

    However, bhaisahab seemed to imply differently in the first part of the following, and then say the opposite in the second: “ "How much beautiful is she" may be grammatically correct but a native English speaker would never say or write it, (except of course to point out that it's incorrect, as I have just done). “

    When I asked in which dialects it might be acceptable Tdol replied, “Not breaching certain rules of grammar is not the only test to apply to see if something works or not IMO.” I am not sure whether or not he was implying that it might be acceptable. If it is, I would be interested to know where.

    Thank you.


    Bhaisahab: How much is she beautiful? ... non-standard English, (I would say incorrect English).
    Corum: He is very much beautiful. …This is not standard English
    Lauralie2: They are unacceptable in my dialect of English.
    Me: … they are not correct English.
    Raymott "How much beautiful is she" is not standard English,

  5. #25
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    Raymott is offline VIP Member
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    Sorry, but I am not clear about what some people are saying. I think that most people are saying that “how much beautiful” is incorrect (see the end of this message).

    However, bhaisahab seemed to imply differently in the first part of the following, and then say the opposite in the second: “ "How much beautiful is she" may be grammatically correct but a native English speaker would never say or write it, (except of course to point out that it's incorrect, as I have just done). “

    When I asked in which dialects it might be acceptable Tdol replied, “Not breaching certain rules of grammar is not the only test to apply to see if something works or not IMO.” I am not sure whether or not he was implying that it might be acceptable. If it is, I would be interested to know where.

    Thank you.


    Bhaisahab: How much is she beautiful? ... non-standard English, (I would say incorrect English).
    Corum: He is very much beautiful. …This is not standard English
    Lauralie2: They are unacceptable in my dialect of English.
    Me: … they are not correct English.
    Raymott "How much beautiful is she" is not standard English,
    It looks like a consensus to me.
    Bhai and Tdol have claimed that it might be grammatical, but both say, in effect, that being grammatical doesn't make it correct English. I agree with that; but I'm not convinced it's grammatical (syntactically correct).
    Are you having trouble with something being grammatical but "not proper English"?

  6. #26
    Johnson_F's Avatar
    Johnson_F is offline Member
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    Are you having trouble with something being grammatical but "not proper English"?
    Not really. I am having trouble with the idea that 'how much beautiful' is grammatically correct. I have always considered it to be grammatically incorrect; it seems that you have doubts about this too. I have, in addition, never heard it from native speakers. So, I have two points, I suppose:

    1. What justification is there for considering it to be grammatically correct, when the books I have read consider it incorrect? I am fully prepared to be told that it is my books that are incorrect, but I am interested to know where the opposing view can be found.

    2. Regardless of whether it is correct or not, I would be interested to learn of dialects in which it is used.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    Not really. I am having trouble with the idea that 'how much beautiful' is grammatically correct. I have always considered it to be grammatically incorrect; it seems that you have doubts about this too. I have, in addition, never heard it from native speakers. So, I have two points, I suppose:

    1. What justification is there for considering it to be grammatically correct, when the books I have read consider it incorrect? I am fully prepared to be told that it is my books that are incorrect, but I am interested to know where the opposing view can be found.

    2. Regardless of whether it is correct or not, I would be interested to learn of dialects in which it is used.
    It's possible to construct many perfectly grammatical but meaningless sentences that nobody would ever say.

  8. #28
    Vidor is offline Member
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    He is very much rich.
    or
    He is very much richer.

    Both are feasible, if the first is a tad constrained.
    First is wrong.

    Anna is the very youngest.
    Anny is youngest.
    Anny is very youngest.
    First is wrong.

  9. #29
    Johnson_F's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    It's possible to construct many perfectly grammatical but meaningless sentences that nobody would ever say.
    As in 'Colourless green ideas sleep furiously." Quite. I fully accept this. I just find it hard to accept that 'how much beautiful is she' may be grammatically correct (your words).Is this your personal opinion, or is it a well-known view? If the latter, could you please let me know where I can read about it, as I am very interested in learning more.

  10. #30
    bhaisahab's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can anyone please answer my question?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnson_F View Post
    As in 'Colourless green ideas sleep furiously." Quite. I fully accept this. I just find it hard to accept that 'how much beautiful is she' may be grammatically correct (your words).Is this your personal opinion, or is it a well-known view? If the latter, could you please let me know where I can read about it, as I am very interested in learning more.
    I am simply saying that amongst all the recognised dialects of English there may be one in which "how much beautiful is she" is acceptable. I have become convinced that is unwise to say "never" in connection with what is, or is not, acceptable in English. It is, however, important to point out as I did that you consider something to be non-standard or incorrect.

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