If I "were" king instead of "was"

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NikkiBarber

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I believe that it is possible and correct to use the form "were" instead of "was" (and possible do the same with other verbs in similar situations) when refering to a hypothetical situation. Is this true? Also, what would this be called and what are the rules for when this can be used?
Thank you in advance.
 

Barb_D

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You're correct. It's called the subjunctive.
 

NikkiBarber

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Thank you for the quick answer.
What is the criteria for when this can be used? Does it only apply to "to be" or can it be used with another verb?
 

philo2009

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Distinctively past subjunctive forms - i.e. those which differ in form from their indicative counterparts - consist only in the 'were' that follows a first or third person subject in a so-called second conditional, such as

If I were a bird, I could fly.

If my wife were a better cook, I'd be happy.

Although sentences such as the above are accepted in all varieties of educated English, there is a tendency, particularly in spoken BrE, to replace the subjunctive with indicative forms, giving

If I was a bird, I could fly.

If my wife was a better cook, I'd be happy.

Since, however, such locutions are considered either incorrect or, at best, poor style, by many AmE speakers, learners are probably best advised to use the distinctively subjunctive forms where appropriate.

Note that these guidelines refer specifically to hypothetical conditional sentences (a sub-class of adverbial clause). There are, however, other kinds of adverbial if-clause, and even nominal if-clauses, in which indicative forms will normally be obligatory.

I would be happy to furnish some information on these if required.
 

NikkiBarber

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Philo, thank you so much for your detailed explanation. I felt fairly certain that it was correct but since I've never actually heard another person use this form outside of schools and universities, and this only in Denmark where they primarily teach British English, I was uncertain.
If you have the time to explain the other if-clauses you mention I would really appreciate it.
I only just discovered this site and for someone like me, who only speaks English as a second language, it is a welcome discovery. Reliable information on the correct use of a language that I am still struggling to master - perfect!
Thank you both again for your help.
 

konungursvia

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As I've said before, I'm not convinced these are subjunctives at all. They are past imperfects, or in some cases past perfects, if you ask me. In most cases, a conditional, when accompanied by the actual condition it depends on, requires the latter in a past imperfect or past perfect:

I would be rich, if I had a million dollars.
I would be in a better situation, if I listened to you.

In my view, "if I were you" is just an old variant of "if I was you"; if you watch Coronation Street, you will notice that in areas of England populated heavily by Scandinavians in the past, there is quite some interchange between was and were (were being used for all persons in such areas).

In my view, the subjunctive has all but disappeared in English, but survives in vestigial form in such phrases as:

She was afraid she might miss the bus.
He was appalled that you should mention the accident.
However pretty she may be, I don't like her.

Or, in bare form:
It is very important that we be here on time, at 6 AM.

These are subjunctives consistent with other Indo-European languages. "If I were you" appears to bear no relation to any European concept of the subjunctive.

I agree with Barb however that lots of people, in "common wisdom," say that it is a subjunctive. I just don't think it really qualifies.
 

philo2009

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konungursvia wrote

As I've said before, I'm not convinced these are subjunctives at all. They are past imperfects,

With all due respect, the enormous problem with this popular, but simplistic, analysis is that they do not refer, in any way, shape or form, to the past!!

Past subjunctives, on the other hand, in all Indo-european languages, do refer to the imaginary present/improbable future (see also below). They simply happen in English, with the exception of I/he/she/it were, to have lost their distinctively morphology.

If you are going to base your arguments on that kind of incidental, superficial evidence, you might as well argue that 'him' is not really an object form, just some kind of Scandinavian variant of 'he', and that direct objects do not really exist in English, as the majority have no distinctively 'accusative' form.


These are subjunctives consistent with other Indo-European languages. "If I were you" appears to bear no relation to any European concept of the subjunctive.

There, I'm afraid, you are quite wrong! In German, the closest I-E reative of English (indeed, a mere couple of millennia ago, effectively the same language), the hypothetical sentence

If I were a bird, I would fly.

would be

Wenn ich ein Vogel waere, wuerde ich fliegen.


as compared with a simple (and genuinely past!) indicative, such as

Ich war hier, als er kam.

(= I was here when he came).
 

5jj

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I do not share Philo's views about the necessity for students to learn about the subjunctive, but he is absolutely right in saying that the underlined form in if I were you is a subjunctive form.

(By the way, most modern authorities consider that such forms as, she might miss, you should mention, and she may be are better considered as modal constructions than as subjunctives.)

I fear that this may seem a little confusing to you Nikki. Try to bear in mind that while some people disagree on the importance of the subjunctive in modern English, most authorities for the last four centuries have agreed that there is a subjunctive mood in English. Very few writers consider that calling any verb forms in English 'imperfect' is helpful.

If you read Philo's posts, Nikki, you will have an accurate picture of the subjunctive.
 
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NikkiBarber

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This is all a little confusing, but it is also very interesting. Perhaps the reason why it confuses me so much is that the subjunctive is not used in Danish at all except for in the Danish translation of "Long live the queen," which someone told me was a subjunctive.
Can someone explain the different functions of the subjuntive? I understand that in the example I first mentioned it is used to express a hypothetical, but the only other way I was taught to use the subjunctive is with "to be." As in: "It is important that you BE on time." But once again I don't understand why it is subjunctive.
Also, what makes konungursvia's examples subjunctive?

She was afraid she might miss the bus.
He was appalled that you should mention the accident.
However pretty she may be, I don't like her.

All your posts have been very helpful but I still don't understand the basic purpose of this form and if anyone can find the time to explain it I'd really appreciate it. Please don't worry about being too detailed or expansive. I will read the posts as many times as it takes for me to get it. ;-)
Thank you
 

Johnson_F

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The subjunctive is actually fairly rare in modern BrE, and many people do not use it at all. The reason it is often associated with BE, is that it is only with this verb that it is easily recognisable. In the present subjunctive, for example the only difference between the subjunctive and the indicative for all verbs (except BE) is that the third person singular subjunctive does not end in –s; he come. With BE, the present subjunctive form is be for all persons.

In the past subjunctive, the form for BE is were for all persons. For all other verbs, the subjunctive form is the same as the indicative. So, in If I had a lot of money I would buy a car, some people argue that the underlined word is subjunctive. However, as it has the same form as the indicative, this is not important, IMO. (Philo would disagree with me on this last point, but he and I agree on the existence and form of the subjunctive, as do most writers on grammar.)


The subjunctive, where it exists, has two common uses:

The mandative, expressing some form of command or suggestion: I insist that he come.

It is commonly replaced by a should form: I insist that he should come or an indicative: I insist that he comes. (Some writers consider the indicative to be 'incorrect'.)


The conditional/concessive: If that be the case…, If I were you….

Many speakers use the indicative: If that is the case…, If I was you…. (Some writers consider the indicative to be 'incorrect'.)

It also survives in certain fossilised phrases: Long live the Queen, Britannia rule the waves.

Konungursvia's examples are examples of modal verbs in use, expressing what, in some languages, would be expressed by a subjunctive. K’s view that they are subjunctive is not shared by many writers. Philo has already demonstrated how K's view on the absence of the subjunctive in other Indo-European languages can be challenged by facts..


Danish depends on tenses and modals to express what in some languages is expressed by the subjunctive mood, just as English does for many speakers.
 

Johnson_F

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[FONT=&quot]I note that your member type is ‘academic’, Nikki. If you have access to a library, George Curme, one of Parser’s favourite writers, devotes some 40 pages of his Syntax to the subjunctive. Some of his views are decidedly dated, and few would now accept his view that modal verbs are part of the subjunctive system, but he gives a thorough analysis of what the subjunctive mood is.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Curme, George O. (1931) Syntax, Boston: Heath, pps 390-430[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 

NikkiBarber

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Thank you all! I think I've finally grasped the purpose and function of the subjunctive form. It seems like you all agree that it would be better to use the subjunctive form (as long as it is used correctly) when needed instead of just sticking to the indicative?
Oh, and thank you Johnson_F. You summed up all the great replies so that it finally made sense to me.
 

NikkiBarber

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Thank you. I will see if I can find that book. Do you know if it is a common book in the uni libraries? Unfortunately we have a very sad selection here and I am trying hard to become familiar enough with the language to where I will be able to teach in the U.S.
Do you know if there is a way I can look at all the posts from a certain member? I got a lot of great answers and it would be convenient if I could look up posts on other subjects from these people. Considering everything I need to learn, or become more familiar with, about English I think it would be easier to just look at old threads instead of posting a hundred new questions.
 

5jj

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Do you know if there is a way I can look at all the posts from a certain member? .
Click on their name above their message. A drop-down menu will lead to all their posts - or, at least, the last 500. And you can send them a PM, too.
 

Johnson_F

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I will see if I can find that book. Do you know if it is a common book in the uni libraries? Unfortunately we have a very sad selection here and I am trying hard to become familiar enough with the language to where I will be able to teach in the U.S.
[FONT=&quot]If you can’t get hold of Curme, try Celce-Murcia, Marianne and Larsen-Freeman, Diane (1983)The Grammar Book (2nd edn, 1999),Cambridge, Mass.: Newbury House. That should be easier to find. Pages 21, 632-633, 647 and 691 will give you an idea of how subjunctive forms are used in AmE. Although the treatment is rather shorter than Curme’s, it’s more up-to date[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]It’s also a good book to look at if you are hoping to teach in the American system. The names of Swan and Quirk et al pop up regularly in this forum. They are, in their very different ways, very good, but they are British. Curme is American, but nearly 80 years out of date (sorry, Parser). C-M and L-F’s book is a very sound and thorough look at the grammar of English as it is understood in the USA.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am too British and stuck in my ways to use it much but, when I have, I have been very impressed with the ideas presented.[/FONT]
 

konungursvia

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Philo has already demonstrated how K's view on the absence of the subjunctive in other Indo-European languages can be challenged by facts..

If you re-read, you will find I did not assert the absence of the subjunctive in other Indo-European languages.

My German is all but forgotten, but I have studied many other Indo-European languages, and have taught them at universities and high schools.

The assertion that the past perfects and past imperfects do not relate to the past (which was perhaps made by another contributor) is quite naive.

The fact is, for conditions (as opposed to conditionals) we use the past almost without exception, despite obviously not referring to the past.

If I was a rich man.... ya da da da da da da da da da da da da da da....

This is consistent with many many Indo-European languages, particularly French, from which English has adopted most of its modern terminology and constructions.

So in an if-clause, I remain unconvinced we're really dealing with a subjunctive.

:)
 

philo2009

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If you have the time to explain the other if-clauses you mention I would really appreciate it.

Essentially, there are two other types of if-clause:

1. NON-PREDICTIVE conditionals

As their name suggests, these differ from hypothetical conditionals in that, rather than assert one imagined state or event as the consequence of another, they present the content of the if-clause as something provisionally accepted as fact for the sake of argument, and forming the basis of, typically, a question, e.g.

If you know so much about the subject, why don't you do it yourself?

'If' here is similar in meaning to 'Given that...'.

2. NOMINAL if-clauses

E.g. that of

I don't know if I should phone her.


'If' here is equivalent to 'whether'.

(Note that the 'or not' frequently added at the end of such sentences is quite redundant, since the existence of a negative alternative is naturally implied by the construction!)
 
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philo2009

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konungursvia wrote:

The assertion that the past perfects and past imperfects do not relate to the past (which was perhaps made by another contributor) is quite naive.

I'm not sure who has made the assertion to which you refer here (one which is, in any case, meaninglessly incomplete unless one specifies whether one is referring to forms of the indicative or of the subjunctive mood), but the only vaguely similar assertion that I can recall having been made recently in this particular thread is that the underlined form of

If I were a bird, I could fly.


(a past subjunctive by the lights of any competent grammarian) does not refer to the past, but to the hypothetical present.

This is consistent with the majority of I-E languages, whose 'past' subjunctives - having little/no actual referential relation to the 'past' whatsoever - are so called purely on grounds of morphological similarity to their indicative counterparts.

The fact is, for conditions (as opposed to conditionals) we use the past almost without exception, despite obviously not referring to the past.

If I was a rich man.... ya da da da da da da da da da da da da da da....


I am uncertain of the distinction that you wish to draw here between 'conditions' and 'conditionals', but you are in any case missing the most vital point: the only distinctively indicative forms occurring in hypothetical second conditionals (as in the lyrics of the song above) - i.e. those in relation to which we can judge of their verbal mood purely on the basis of their form and without reference to privilege of occurrence/manner of predication - constitute those very cases which many educated (esp. AmE) users do not accept as good style or even as formally correct English.

You might as well cite *between you and I as a basis for inferring that prepositions can legitimately govern nouns in the nominative case!

This is consistent with many many Indo-European languages, particularly French, from which English has adopted most of its modern terminology and constructions.

Quite wrong again! In terms of its basic structure,
English, as any student of historical linguistics will tell you, is a thoroughly Germanic language. The only significant influence of French on English has been in terms of vocabulary. Its influence on English syntax has been close to non-existent.

Thus, if comparative linguistics are to be brought to bear on the issue, I would refer you, once again, to the far more relevant German if-sentences recently posted.

So in an if-clause, I remain unconvinced we're really dealing with a subjunctive.

And yet, according to an earlier post of yours, you readily accept, it would appear, the existence of a present subjunctive in English, despite the fact that it also is relatively little used and also identical in form to corresponding indicatives in the majority of cases.
Most perplexing!

:-?
 

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If you re-read, you will find I did not assert the absence of the subjunctive in other Indo-European languages.

Sorry. I had your "If I were you" appears to bear no relation to any European concept of the subjunctive" at the back of my mind, and mis-used it.
 

5jj

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Part of the problem for some, whether we are talking about the subjunctive or not, is that we use ‘past’ tense forms to talk about present and future situations, both real and unreal.

As I have suggested in other threads, the problem is alleviated if we forget the word ‘past’. Whatever was true of English in the past (= past time), and whatever may be true of other languages today, the tense system of modern English bears little direct relationship with time. The so-called present tense and aspects are used of situations that are seen as close: in time, reality and directness. The so-called past tenses are used of situations that are distanced or remote: in time, reality and directness.

As virtually every writer on English grammar since Bullokar has used the labels ‘present’ and ‘past’, we are unlikely to change this, but it would be helpful to recognise that there is nothing inconsistent about using a ‘past’ tense to describe a future situation.

I give below examples of the close/remote pairing.

Closeness/Remoteness in:

Time:
I am driving to work this morning when this car suddenly pulls out of a drive with no warning. (Vivid, Close)
I was driving to work this morning when a car suddenly pulled out of a drive with no warning. (Distanced in time, Remote.)

Reality:
If it rains tomorrow, we’ll have to cancel the match. (Possible = close in reality))
If it rained tomorrow, we’d have to cancel the match. (Less likely = more remote in reality.)
If it were raining now, we’d all be indoors. (Counterfactual; you can’t get more remote from reality than that. )

Directness:
I wonder if you have a moment. (Direct, Close)
I wondered if you had a moment. (Indirect, Remote)
 
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