Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 55
  1. #31
    5jj's Avatar
    5jj is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    28,167
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    Are you actually saying that most of you deliberately pronounce "clothes" the exact same way as "close", taking care not to include even a hint of a th sound? That's what it sounds like you are saying. No, we don't take care to do it - it just happens.

    And I don't know why any English teacher would want to try to convince her students that the pronunciation of "clothes" and "close" is the same, when they are not the same. A careful pronunciation of 'clothes' is of course not the same as that of 'close'. However, the word 'clothes' is frequently pronounced/kləʊz/(BrE, ) /kloʊz/(AmE) by native speakers in normal conversation. This is confirmed in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, in which J C Wells which records what people say, rather than what they think they say.

    Students "have been conditioned to believe" that there is a difference in the pronunciation of the two words because there is a difference. There may be in your pronunciation of the two words. Fine.
    5

  2. #32
    2006 is offline Banned
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Other
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • Canada
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    4,161
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    1 2006
    2 fivejedjon
    3 2006

    Originally Posted by 2006
    Are you actually saying that most of you deliberately pronounce "clothes" the exact same way as "close", taking care not to include even a hint of a th sound? That's what it sounds like you are saying. No, we don't take care to do it - it just happens.

    And I don't know why any English teacher would want to try to convince her students that the pronunciation of "clothes" and "close" is the same, when they are not the same.
    A careful pronunciation of 'clothes' is of course not the same as that of 'close'. That's what I've been saying, and there's no reason pronunciation shouldn't be careful.
    However, the word 'clothes' is frequently pronounced/kləʊz/(BrE, ) /kloʊz/(AmE) by native speakers in normal conversation. This is confirmed in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, in which J C Wells which records what people say, rather than what they think they say. Your implication is that I think I and others say "clothes" but you know that we say "close'". Students "have been conditioned to believe" that there is a difference in the pronunciation of the two words because there is a difference. There may be in your pronunciation of the two words. It's not just me Fine.

    I hope to have nothing more to say about "clothes" and "close".

  3. #33
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    You're right about both things but I'm wondering how you could guess it from such a tiny piece of information...
    Vowel epenthesis is common in the world's languages.


    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    Don't you pronounce "cloves" without a schwa too?
    I pronounce 'cloves (the spice)' as clo[vz], as do other native English speakers. The sounds [v] and [z] do not share the same place of articulation; if they did, I would insert an epenthetic vowel; e.g., "rose", plural ro[zɨz].


    With the word "clothes" clo[z],

    if you cannot pronounce [], then you will adopt the closest sound that you know; e.g., [v] (giving, clo[vz]) or [z] (giving clo[zɪz] or clo[ziz] with an epenthetic vowel sharing place of articulation with [z]).


    if you can pronounce [], but are not used to pronouncing consonant clusters, then "clothes" becomes clo[ɪz] or clo[iz], wherein an epenthetic vowel is inserted between [] and [z] to make pronunciation more manageable.

    In your case, the key is that your pronunciation of [] is too close to that of [z], and so when the two occur together in a cluster (as in clo[z] "clothes"), dis-assimilation takes place: [] becomes [v], a sound that is farther away from [z], but close to [], which gives a more manageable pronunciation, clo[vz].

    Your pronunciation of "clothes" (clo[vz]) interests me. Do you ever pronounce it as clo[fs]? The reason I ask, Polish <v> and <z> are pronounced [f] and [s] word-finally. Is Polish your first language?

  4. #34
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    ...the verb "close" has a different pronunciation than "clothes". They both end with a z sound, but "clothes" of course has the "th" sound in it's full pronunciation.
    Let's clarify.


    The noun "clothes" has two pronunciations, the second one of which has the same pronunciation as the verb 'close':


    "clothes" <noun>

    1. clo[z] "I like your clothes."
    2. clo[z] "I like your clothes"



    "close" <verb>

    1. clo[z] "Close the door."

  5. #35
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    Students "have been conditioned to believe" that there is a difference in the pronunciation of the two words because there is a difference.
    Yes, that's exactly what it is: conditioning. There is most definitely a difference (clo[]z). There is also a similarity (clo[z]), which was not an option to language purists way back then...in the days of old. Welcome to the 21st century, dearest 2006!

  6. #36
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    I hope to have nothing more to say about "clothes" and "close".
    That's just comical.

  7. #37
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Student or Learner
      • Native Language:
      • Polish
      • Home Country:
      • Poland
      • Current Location:
      • Poland
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,098
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by lauralie2 View Post
    Vowel epenthesis is common in the world's languages.


    I pronounce 'cloves (the spice)' as clo[vz], as do other native English speakers. The sounds [v] and [z] do not share the same place of articulation; if they did, I would insert an epenthetic vowel; e.g., "rose", plural ro[zɨz].
    I still don't understand... You said my pronunciation of "clothes" as clo[vz] made you think we don't have schwas in Polish. But there is no schwa in "cloves" in English too... I guess what you wrote next explains your reasoning:

    With the word "clothes" clo[z],

    if you cannot pronounce [], then you will adopt the closest sound that you know; e.g., [v] (giving, clo[vz]) or [z] (giving clo[zɪz] or clo[ziz] with an epenthetic vowel sharing place of articulation with [z]).


    if you can pronounce [], but are not used to pronouncing consonant clusters, then "clothes" becomes clo[ɪz] or clo[iz], wherein an epenthetic vowel is inserted between [] and [z] to make pronunciation more manageable.
    The problem is that it doesn't work this way in my case. I can pronounce [] as native speakers do. Indeed, many Poles have trouble with this sound and make [d], [z] or [v] out of it. (Perhaps they do make it voiceless word-finally sometimes.) I, however, was taught the sound as a child and have no problem with it. But I am a Pole, so I am used to pronouncing consonant clusters. As I said I must be able to pronounce five consonants in a row without a schwa. (Of course, I can't pronounce every long consonant cluster. ) In fact, I am able to pronounce "clothes" as clo[z], without a schwa. I may even do this in real life sometimes, I'm not sure. But surely, I don't do that often, as it requires too much effort.

    In your case, the key is that your pronunciation of [] is too close to that of [z], and so when the two occur together in a cluster (as in clo[z] "clothes"), dis-assimilation takes place: [] becomes [v], a sound that is farther away from [z], but close to [], which gives a more manageable pronunciation, clo[vz].
    I don't think this is what happens. I'll try to explain what I think about my pronunciation of the word and give more details about it below.

    Your pronunciation of "clothes" (clo[vz]) interests me. Do you ever pronounce it as clo[fs]? The reason I ask, Polish <v> and <z> are pronounced [f] and [s] word-finally. Is Polish your first language?
    Yes, Polish is my native language. Please note that I may not be a typical Polish English speaker. I have a long experience speaking and listening to English and have studied the language for a long time.

    You're right. In Polish, voiced consonants become voiceless word-finally. And I do notice this in my English pronunciation but only marginally. I have been trained not to do this. I must say here that this is not a major problem for a native Polish speaker when they learn English. It's relatively easy to overcome. Dental consonants, for example, cause much more trouble.

    Since you're interested in my pronunciation of "clothes", I'll give you my thoughts on it, along with some more details.

    First of all, my problem with pronouncing it like "close" does not lie in the sound of it. I know native speakers pronounce it this way and when I hear it I understand easily and don't find it "jarring" in any way. The problem is that I have this need of doing something between the vowel and and the [z]. I'm not sure where this need originates but I know for sure that I find it awkward to pronounce the word "clothes" like "close" without even marking the []. It's not about sound, it's about movement - I need to assure myself that I'm trying to pronounce the [].

    Seemingly, I do this in several ways. (Note that I might be making the following stuff up. This is what I think now.) If I want to use my tongue, I must do it quickly---to be able to move it to the position of [z] afterwards without uttering a schwa (I would find a schwa very awkward there.) This haste may result in several sounds. I may pronounce a [d] if I just touch my teeth/gums quickly. I don't think I do it often, but it seems possible.

    I may also give up pronouncing [] interdentally and do a dental approximant by placing the tip of my tongue very close behind my upper teeth. I think I do this.

    Then, I may do the [v]. I don't think this is because of my first language. It's simply much easier than any of the above as it allows me to say this without any difficulty, as [v] does not involve my tongue, which can be ready to go to the [z] position immediately afterwards. (A schwa would remove the difficulty too, but as I said, I would never do a schwa there. Which doesn't mean that I don't understand the idea of the schwa or can't pronounce it where it's correct!) The [v] will be very weak---the lip will be quite far from the teeth (I don't know why)---and may even completely disappear in my speech. If it disappears, I do in fact pronounce clo[z]! But in my mind there's still a [v] in such cases. I think I pronounce the [v], but in fact my lip doesn't change its position. (I wonder if such a phenomenon has any name.)
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 27-Dec-2010 at 15:40.

  8. #38
    NikkiBarber's Avatar
    NikkiBarber is offline Junior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Academic
      • Native Language:
      • Danish
      • Home Country:
      • Denmark
      • Current Location:
      • United States
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    93
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Birdeen: How do you pronounce the Polish word for a city that in German is spelled "Stettin"? I stayed there and noticed that the Polish spelling of the word had a long row of consonants and almost no vowels. It would be impossible for me to even attempt to pronounce this.
    Do you know this city and how the name is pronounced? I can't remember the spelling, I just remember seeing a cluster of Z's, S's and maybe C's.

  9. #39
    birdeen's call is offline VIP Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Student or Learner
      • Native Language:
      • Polish
      • Home Country:
      • Poland
      • Current Location:
      • Poland
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,098
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by NikkiBarber View Post
    Birdeen: How do you pronounce the Polish word for a city that in German is spelled "Stettin"? I stayed there and noticed that the Polish spelling of the word had a long row of consonants and almost no vowels. It would be impossible for me to even attempt to pronounce this.
    Do you know this city and how the name is pronounced? I can't remember the spelling, I just remember seeing a cluster of Z's, S's and maybe C's.
    Of course, I know the city.

    Its Polish name is Szczecin. No wonder it's difficult for you to pronounce. The digraph "sz" stands for the voiceless retroflex fricative. "Cz" stands for the voiceless retroflex affricate. "Ci" stands for the voiceless alveolo-palatal affricate + [i] (in this particular word).

    Here's a sound sample from Wikipedia: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Szczecin-2.ogg

    Unfortunately the word is cut. There should be the [n] sound at the end.

    If anybody is interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Szczecin

    But we're going far off-topic...
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 27-Dec-2010 at 16:57.

  10. #40
    lauralie2 is offline Senior Member
    • Member Info
      • Member Type:
      • Retired English Teacher
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Canada
      • Current Location:
      • China
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    774
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Pronunciation of "months" and "shrimp."

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I still don't understand... You said my pronunciation of "clothes" as clo[vz] made you think we don't have schwas in Polish.
    That your first language has consonant clusters is, I believe, what was said. The fact that you didn't insert an epenthetic vowel tells me your first language has consonant clusters. You are used to pronouncing clusters, which is why you don't insert a vowel between [] and [z].

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    ...I am able to pronounce "clothes" as clo[z], without a schwa. I may even do this in real life sometimes, I'm not sure. But surely, I don't do that often, as it requires too much effort.
    Exactly, which is why you simplify the cluster [z] by changing [] to [v], giving clo[vz], right?


    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I think I pronounce the [v], but in fact my lip doesn't change its position. (I wonder if such a phenomenon has any name.)
    There might be a term for that; I just don't know what it is.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. [Vocabulary] The pronunciation of the last letter D "Mind", "God", "Good".....
    By Williamyh in forum Pronunciation and Phonetics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 19-May-2010, 11:17
  2. [Vocabulary] How do you pronounce "Cotton", "Button", "Britain", "Manhattan"...
    By Williamyh in forum Pronunciation and Phonetics
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 24-Dec-2009, 09:36
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-Sep-2008, 09:27
  4. confusing words "expressed" or "express" and "named" or"names"
    By Dawood Usmani in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 26-Oct-2007, 20:33
  5. Using "offering price" & "tempura shrimp"
    By dtharachai in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 23-Jul-2007, 20:30

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •