birdeen's call
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"You guys" seems to be very popular throughout the US.
In my opinion there is no problem labeling a linguistic development decay if it has resulted in a clear loss to the language, as is the case with the 2. person pronoun.
I don't think that it is impossible to express the meaning of the old 1. person singular by other means, but I do think that the alternatives are a lot less simple and often less elegant.Would you say then that the 2 sing. in English (in, say, Shakespeare's day) expressed something that it is no longer possible for English to express?
If so, what would that something be?
Best wishes,
MrP
You might be interested in this: Shakespeare Resource Center - Thou Pesky "Thou"I am not sure that the distinction between Shakespeare's use of "you" vs "thou" is completely understood. I looked into it once and did not find a satisfactory answer. I believe that it might have been in flux at the time. .
I am inclined to agree with you in the case of 'thou'. In general however, I am unhappy with the use of the word 'decay'. It suggests a deterioration in the language, which some of us do not feel. I now regret saying, in an earlier post, "I think that the subjunctive is 'decaying' in BrE" I should have said, "...is disappearing".Incidentally, I still feel that it was an instance of "decay" when it is compared to the grammatical nuances available in French and German. It's like...we English speakers had our chance but lost it.
Thou/thee served a function. The pronouns alone made it clear that they were referring to only one person. In modern English you will need additional context to make your meaning understood. If the separate form for the 1. person singular had been preserved it would be unnecessary to use more complicated structures to specify the number of people you are addressing. Personally, I consider that a loss.
"I want you to say 'thou' to me," I said. [Говорите мне "ты", - сказала я.]
"I was just going to," he answered; "I feel for the first time that thou art entirely mine;" and his calm happy gaze that drew me to him rested on me.
...
I too wished to say "thou" to him, but I felt ashamed.
"Why dost thou walk so fast?" I said quickly and almost in a whisper; I could not help blushing.
Oh, also, I don't think the distinction that I understand is as much one of superior/inferior as it is strange/familiar. There is a matter of intimacy.
That's interesting. I know that I've sometimes caused (or suffered) momentary confusion as a result of "you = 2nd person" vs "you = one", but I don't think I've found number problematic.
MrP
Do you have any possible explanation of WHY?
I admit, I have no recollection of problems of this kind. That might simply be an error of memory; but on the other hand, I do remember that sometimes the "you/one" ambiguity has caused momentary confusions. If I remember the latter, I would have expected to remember the former, had they ever occurred.Haven't you ever found yourself speaking to one person among several others and been understood as if you were addressing them all? Or vice versa? It might be a minor point, but since I consider the ability to make that distinction useful, I see the inability to do so as a loss.